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The Muslims did a reasonably good job in the Balkans, I'd say. Who is to say that they wouldn't have been as successful elsewhere, although the further West they went, the more the Catholic church and the Habsburgs became involved. (But the Hapsburgs could only contain, not eradicate, Protestantism). So, it's an interesting question.
I think that Snowball is of the impression that there is an inherent link between white folks and Christianity, never mind that Christianity was essentially a non-European religion to begin with and one adopted in Europe largely at the point of a sword.
Anyway...
Had the Muslims successfully conquered all of Europe the world would have been deprived of many varietals of grapes, no merlots, cabernets. No Guiness no Pilsners, no Scotch and god help us, no gin!
I think that Snowball is of the impression that there is an inherent link between white folks and Christianity, never mind that Christianity was essentially a non-European religion to begin with and one adopted in Europe largely at the point of a sword.
Anyway...
Had the Muslims successfully conquered all of Europe the world would have been deprived of many varietals of grapes, no merlots, cabernets. No Guiness no Pilsners, no Scotch and god help us, no gin!
Don't forget that the internet would have never been invented either given the lack of porn to distribute.
So many people posting view Islam at the time as somehow "backwards" or "lesser" than Christian Europe. The reality in the time period we are talking about is VERY different. It was the Christian nations of Europe that were backward, introverted and mired in their dogma and orthodoxy. A Muslim conquest of Europe may actually have accelerated the timeline of advancement and enlightenment.
People hear Islam and they imagine Islam today as practiced in the Middle East. Islam has evolved the way it has in the Middle East because of poor economic conditions. A poor economy leads to fanatacism whether it is Christian or Islam. The Christians of Europe were the "fanatics" at this time versus the rather civilized Islamic nations. A Muslim conquest of Europe would have most likely brought peace and prosperity on a scale not seen until much later in Europe.
You can take a "what if" scenario anyway you want to, but I believe that it would have been a net positive influence on Europe at the time. The main difference being people praying in mosques versus churches.
That's an interesting perspective that I haven't heard much yet on this thread.
Ovcatto, my only statement in this thread is 100% correct.
Now leave me alone while I read City of God and how Alaric
spared the Christians in the temples.
Ovcatto, my only statement in this thread is 100% correct.
Now leave me alone while I read City of God and how Alaric
spared the Christians in the temples.
NJ Goat, what I said was: "Even if the Muslims pounded early Dark Age Europe into the ground,
there is no way the people would have converted to Islam.
No frikkin way."
Is this what you disagree with ? Or are you merely disposed to disagree with
me to be "in form" ?
Let me ask you something. If the neighboring Muslim nations defeated modern
"Israel" in battle, do you think the "Jews" would convert to Islam ?
NJ Goat, what I said was: "Even if the Muslims pounded early Dark Age Europe into the ground,
there is no way the people would have converted to Islam.
No frikkin way."
Is this what you disagree with ? Or are you merely disposed to disagree with
me to be "in form" ?
Let me ask you something. If the neighboring Muslim nations defeated modern
"Israel" in battle, do you think the "Jews" would convert to Islam ?
I am not simply disagreeing with you to be "in form". There have occasionally been times that I agreed with specific statements or facts you have presented (though I do generally strongly disagree with the thinly veiled implications you are making when presenting those facts and statements). I disagree with this particular statement as I believe that given enough time the population, at least some of them, would in fact convert to Islam. It all would ultimately depend on the form the conquest, the institutions established and how long it lasted, etc. I am not envisioning a "we lost the war now we convert" scenario, but more of a "six plus generations after we lost the war" conversion scenario.
Of course, one unique feature of Islam is that unlike Christians of the time, Islam tolerated other religions and non-Muslims living in their lands. They would have had no problem with Europe remaining Christian in terms of religion as long as the appropriate taxes were paid and military service rendered. It is certainly possible then that Europe could maintain a Christian identity, but I find it highly unlikely that there would be "no frikkin way" that people would convert. Some most certainly would even if just for economic and political benefit.
Here we have the ultimate problem with "what if" scenarios. My scenario would be a loss at the Battle of Tours that then results in a Muslim hegemony being established across Europe occupying all of what was the Roman Empire. This Grand Caliphate then lasts for the next 1,000+ years. In that scenario I find it hard for a large chunk of the population NOT to convert. It took Christianity three hundred years to really establish itself and was ultimately not done until conversion was enforced from the "top down". I know for you that this is more a question with deeper religious roots and that taints your answer. To me this is simply a matter of pragmatism and the dominant philosophy for a society. If Christianity could supplant paganism then there is no reason that Islam could not supplant Christianity in a scenario where the entire "known world" was Muslim.
Well, I believe Christianity was a "bottom up" movement for centuries, later in its
expansion, secular historians tend to overemphasize the "top down" aspect, and
underemphasize evangelical conversions of faith. Concerning Islam and its tolerances
or lack thereof, that's a very regional and chronological topic with different cases.
Anyway, you ducked my question.
Well, I believe Christianity was a "bottom up" movement for centuries, later in its
expansion, secular historians tend to overemphasize the "top down" aspect, and
underemphasize evangelical conversions of faith. Concerning Islam and its tolerances
or lack thereof, that's a very regional and chronological topic with different cases.
Anyway, you ducked my question.
I didn't duck anything, unless you mean the strawman argument about a hypothetical fall of Israel. What I did do was provide the direct reasons and supporting statements over why I disagreed with your statement, which if you recall was the central point of your reply.
As for the secular and non-secular historians, I think it is fair to say we will not agree over the validity of certain people who choose to approach history entirely from a dogmatic religious basis based on the actual existence and influence of a God or gods. A religious influenced source is biased. I will stick with my "top down" view of the spread of Christianity, especially given the extremely fractious nature of the early church and its beliefs.
Islam on the whole has a far better track record of tolerance than Christianity, esepcially in the timeline of our little fanciful scenario. I have found that what introlerance one can find before the modern age was largely tied to responses over actions of the decidedly intolerant Christians.
As for the Jews, you will of course hold up the example that there are in fact still Jews despite the Jewish homeland having been conquered who knows how many times at this point. However, throughout all of those conquests Jews as a culture and religion were able to maintain their identity. Mainly because they were tolerated to a degree as a fringe group within the world that filled a purpose. However, there are in fact countless examples of Jews that have converted to Islam both historical and modern. There are also examples of Jews that converted to Christianity, often at the point of a sword or upon the rack.
So to answer your question...Israel gets swallowed by the military forces of Arab nations. The people currently living there remain and are not allowed to leave. The synagogues and temples are destroyed, Hebrew banned, etc. Children are then forced to go to Islamic schools, learn Arabic, etc. It will not happen right away and the people will most likely secretly cling to Judaism for some time. However, given several generations, the people living in what was formerly Israel will most likely be nearly fully converted to Islam. Historically the Jews were lucky in that their various oppressors (with the major exception of certain Christian kingdoms at certain times) generally let them be Jews and keep their religion. From the Egyptians to the Romans to the Ottomans to the British. No one ever tried to force the Jews to not be Jews.
Now here is my example...
Why are African-Americans largely Christian? Certainly they were not Christians when they were taken in bondage from Africa. On the plantations they were introduced to and then forcibly converted to Christianity. They did not become Christian because they saw the glorious light of Christ. They became Christian because they were afforded no other choice and were compelled at the tip of the masters whip.
I am not so sure that the loss at the Battle of Tours would have been the be all and end all of this "war". Do not forget that the military (for lack of a better name) of western Europe were very, very formidable fighters. In fact, they were among the most war like of any group on earth at that time. Ultimately, I think they would have prevailed.
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