Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
From everything I have heard Italy really wasn't that great a help and was a pretty bad and inconsequential ally overall, so had Hitler not allied with Italy would you see it hampering the Germans war effort much?
You know I hate alternative history but will try in this instance... Does no Axis Italy mean no Italian invasion of Albania and Greece which then led to German invasions in the Balkans? Does no German Balkan invasion mean German invasion of Russia executes sooner? What does that do regarding campaign gains before the rains and snow in Russia? Does that mean Moscow is captured? Is Stalin likely to be offed by his own people if Moscow falls? Does no Axis Italy mean the Allies may have tried a Contentin peninsula invasion in 1942? Same or larger in 1943? No Torch? Do any of the three previous conditions mean the Allies will fight a stronger Germany and lose more men or maybe be defeated? Does the previous mean Hitler may have slipped on strudel at the victory celebration and fallen and broken his neck?
Do the Japanese still attack at the end of 1941 with a strong British RN available in the SW Pacific? Does America even enter the war if there is no PH?
You know I hate alternative history but will try in this instance... Does no Axis Italy mean no Italian invasion of Albania and Greece which then led to German invasions in the Balkans? Does no German Balkan invasion mean German invasion of Russia executes sooner? What does that do regarding campaign gains before the rains and snow in Russia? Does that mean Moscow is captured? Is Stalin likely to be offed by his own people if Moscow falls? Does no Axis Italy mean the Allies may have tried a Contentin peninsula invasion in 1942? Same or larger in 1943? No Torch? Do any of the three previous conditions mean the Allies will fight a stronger Germany and lose more men or maybe be defeated? Does the previous mean Hitler may have slipped on strudel at the victory celebration and fallen and broken his neck?
Do the Japanese still attack at the end of 1941 with a strong British RN available in the SW Pacific? Does America even enter the war if there is no PH?
No.
The spring in 1941 was very wet in Poland and western Russia. River valleys were flooded and impassable into June due to unusually heavy spring rains. Though Barbarossa went off later than initially planned (May 15), it also went off almost as early as it practically could. Until about mid-June it probably wasn't feasible - a single week likely made no difference in how 1941 played out.
There is just too much to go into such a scenario. Basically, the impact would really be dependent on what Italy did. Remember, Italy was invading other countries and Mussolini was rambling about a "new Rome" long before Germany began to take an aggressive posture. So, what does Italy do in this alternative? If they are still desiring to expand their territory and be an aggressor, then they need to align with Germany. If they give up those ambitions then they could pretty much become another "Spain".
That's pretty much true and he especially abhorred the fact that Italy was forced into the role of a junior partner within the Axis. Something he had long sought to avoid. He was most incensed over Hitler's refusal to acquiesce to the Four Power Directorate and Hitler's unilateral decision making.
Quote:
England pushed him into Germany's arms.
Can you explain your reasoning on that one? Italy's foreign policy from the end of WW1 through 1935 was one of seeking to serve as a balance between France and Germany. Italy sought support and favor with both on and off throughout that period. At first Italy sought alliance with Weimar Germany against France and then it was with France against a resurgent Nazi Germany. The tipping moment occurred with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia when Britain and France rebuked Italy while Hitler and Germany offered immediate support. Even then, by 1938 France and Britain both recognized Italy's claims and sanctions had long been lifted. Italy then solidly turned its intentions against France and made a series of demands on French possessions in Africa.
So, replace England with France and I get it.
If you are going back to Italy getting "screwed" at Versailles, then the intervening two decades would show that Italy was anything but "pushed into Germany's arms" by the agreement between Brtiain and France to deny Italy what it was promised.
Mussolini I always felt was almost forced into the alliance. He was a bad guy,but not in the Hitler/Stalin/Mao league for evil. Almost no Italians wanted any part of that alliance. I think Hitler just felt he needed the foothold,and that it was a must to have Italy.
Mussolini I always felt was almost forced into the alliance. He was a bad guy,but not in the Hitler/Stalin/Mao league for evil. Almost no Italians wanted any part of that alliance. I think Hitler just felt he needed the foothold,and that it was a must to have Italy.
Duce was forced into it because only Germany was willing to entertain his desires to expand the Italian presence in Africa and the Balkans. He always vacillated between France and Germany seeing Italy as the balancing power between the two. When France rebuked over his aspirations in Africa, he was pushed solidly into the German camp where he quickly became the junior partner.
I wondered would Hitler have went after the Balklans if Italy had not attacked and got beaten back down there ? He wanted to secure his southern flank and if he was not allied with Italy what would he have done with Italy before the Russian campaign ? I mean would Hitler have wanted to take the Balkans and Italy before the attack on Russia ?
And I always thought the Duce wanted to create another Roman Empire ? So he went after land in Africa and wanted to conquer the whole Mediteranean but the way I see it most of the Italian people wanted nothing to do with that ? And most Italian people did not want to ally with Germany against the United States from what I have read ? Ron
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
