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I always thought that idea Jesus was a hoax was a kooky theory but Richard Carrier makes a great point for it. He says that of all the authentic letters we know Paul wrote, in none of them does he cite anything but scripture and his "revelations" or hallucinations. Never does he claim to meet any real life people who knew Jesus in any of them!
He also makes the case that Jesus followed a pattern of a lot of similar Hellenistic deities around the same era and that the Gospels came late and seem to be purely fabrication. There was also an entity called Jesus attested to as early as AD 40 that was a celestial savior who was crucified not in Palestine but rather in outer space.
Carrier's theory is that Jesus was believed by Paul to be a mythical God and that the Gospels were written decades later in an attempt to place him into history, much like Greek authors rewrote Zeus etc to have lived on earth as mortal kings later in antiquity when originally they were always seen as celestial beings.
The argument against Carrier seems to be mostly based on the "principle of embarassment" - ie the fact Jesus has such an ordinary first name, the fact he was from Nazareth instead of Bethlelem, that he was crucified, etc. My argument against that in favor of the mythicists is that if they were writing a fiction these "embarassments" and tension would make the story far more interesting to readers.
What's the guy in the video is saying isn't really about facts but more about speculation and doubt.
I think he made some really good points. I'm not totally sure Jesus was a myth now, but I am convinced that the Jesus Myth Theory is a valid theory and I think it will probably become more accepted in academia over time.
Pretty much everything this guy says is wrong.
My advice if you want to read about the 1st Century,
there's plenty of work done over the last 1900 years
than to play into the hands of these atheist opportunists
trying to sell agenda-driven books over the last couple decades.
what about Suetonius, not impressed ? The quintissential Jewish and Roman historians
of the day both mention him, I guess that's just b.s, huh.
02-15-2014, 12:43 PM
2K5Gx2km
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
what about Suetonius, not impressed ? The quintissential Jewish and Roman historians
of the day both mention him, I guess that's just b.s, huh.
It most likely has nothing to do with Jesus since Suetonius lived from 69-122 A.D. and was writing about Claudius, who ruled from 41-54 A.D., and an event most likely in 49 A.D. There is also much controversy about the term he used 'Chrestus' which has numerous different spellings in the mss.
Anyway, he was certainly not an eyewitness nor is he confirming or denying the existence of the 'Jesus' in the gospels.
How about Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Governor, Consul, Senator, Historian:
56-117 AD: The surviving portions of his two major works—the Annals and the Histories—examine the reigns of the Roman Emperors Tiberius, Claudius, Nero, and those who reigned in the Year of the Four Emperors (AD 69)
Tacitus- Annals 15:44
44. Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
02-15-2014, 01:25 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
How about Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Governor, Consul, Senator, Historian:
56-117 AD: The surviving portions of his two major works—the Annals and the Histories—examine the reigns of the Roman Emperors Tiberius, Claudius, Nero, and those who reigned in the Year of the Four Emperors (AD 69)
Tacitus- Annals 15:44
44. Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
Again, Tacitus is not an eyewitness he is only relaying information he heard about their origins, probably from Christians themselves about their own beliefs or of the populace of his own time (as he mentions), of an incident with Christians in the time of Nero - which of course is after the life of Jesus (or in this case his supposed life). This just shows what Christians believed and Tacitus is just relaying this while commenting on the event under Nero.
There is no reason to disallow the writings of Josephus,
Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny. Since the prime sources of
historical info concerning the reign of Tiberius was written after
his reign, why is it only the references to Jesus that these people
deem somehow lacking ?
Why did the Pharisses never say he didn't exist ?
Why aren't Jews today joining the "Jesus didn't exist" train ?
Why is all the Greco-Roman world and Eastern and African
histories in full agreement over 1900+ years that Jesus existed ?
Why is Jesus and his disciples, and his mother, in the Talmud ?
Why does the Talmud record that God rejected their sacrifices
after 30 A.D. ?
What about the Pilate Stone, the Pilate coins ?
What about Tertullian's account (he was a Roman lawyer who
had access to the archives) that Emperor Tiberius put to the Senate
to make Jesus a god in the pantheon, but the senate rejected this,
because by law only the senate could put something to a vote ? And
that Tiberius threatened those who persecuted Christians ?
How about the fact that in all the turmoil during and after Jesus's time,
the Jerusalem records were destroyed, along with the earliest Gospel,
the Hebrew Matthew ?
Is it strange that the dating of gospels has been bumped up 20-50 years
in the last few decades ? according to whom ? Jesus never instructed his
apostles to write down what he said. Word was spread by mouth then, in
the Hebrew tradition. It was not until the 1st century that the Jews assembled
their full book of books. Although most place Acts, and Epistles to Thessalonians
the closest to the life of Jesus (of the books we have today), how did Christianity
split Judiasm and cause such turmoil in the Roman empire, and spread to the East among contemporaries, who were willing to sacrifice their lives to attest to its truth, if "Jesus never existed" ?
Would not those living have known that he "didn't exist" ? Why did a contemporary
Greek (Luke) assemble a gospel ? Why did a contemporary North African (Mark)
assemble a gospel ? Were Greeks, Syrians, Africans, Jews, Romans, and other groups
natural allies during the 1st Century ? No. Yet, they all agree Christ lived. Why ?
Why are there numerous accounts of the lives and deaths, and works of all
the apostles from non-biblical sources ? Or are these accounts to be thoroughly discarded,
and is all tradition to be discared, historically speaking ? Gaul, Spain, India,
Ethiopia, even in the British Isles (Joseph of Arimathea).
Are the writings of Origen, Justin Martyr, Papias, Clement, Irenaeus, Eusebius and
others all to be discarded ?
Why did Titus Flavius Clemens, nephew of Emperor Vespasian, son of Roman prefect
Titus Flavius Sabinus , convert to Christianity and chose to suffer death for it
if "Jesus didn't exist" ?
Are all apocrypha and Christian writings of the 1st century to be disregarded because
they were written by "converts", or "believers" ?
The years 30-100 were tumultuous times.. what are the primary causes of this
tumult ? What split Judaism ? What changed the known world ? Did they all do it for a person
who did not exist ? If they said he existed then, who is someone 1900+ years later
to say that he did not, because why ?
I will no longer reply to this thread. It's a time-wasting trap.
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