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Old 03-02-2014, 08:10 AM
 
Location: near bears but at least no snakes
26,648 posts, read 28,511,202 times
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It's probably impossible to decide who is more evil but I would not decide on the basis of numbers killed, I would take into account the intent, the reasons, and the underlying goal.

Hitler was obsessed with the idea of a "master race." Eugenics. The superior Aryan race. He was the ultimate racist.

No one can control their genetic makeup so to Hitler, people were doomed at birth, absolutely worthless. Massive numbers of people were killed simply due to blind hatred of nothing more than how they were born.

Of course Stalin was evil. If people got in the way of his goal to establish his type of political ideology, they were killed. More like the usual cruel and heartless dictator who killed anyone who disagreed with him.

But to have as your goal the elimination of much of humanity on the basis of genetics--no matter who you are, is not only evil, it is very sick. To be obsessed and carried away with ancient Hindu writings about the "pure" Aryan race and to try to breed people who would be blonde and blue eyed suggests a twisted type of evil, irrational hatred based upon a complete falsehood.

You can't just count the numbers and conclude that one is more evil than another. There are lots of reasons why one dictator didn't kill as many as another dictator--maybe one got stopped sooner, another didn't have the armies--but take a look at what they were trying to do, their ultimate goal. The philosophy of a master race ruling the world is extremely sick and evil.
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Old 03-02-2014, 09:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sharky8828 View Post
- True but the majority of Germans had nothing to do with Nazism either but shouldered the blame regardless

- From my families first hand experience, compared to German troops the Russians treated Poles worse and were uncivilized. The Russian mongol troop stereotype had truth to it

- Jews did back Communism (if not blatantly run it in Russia). I don't blame them: It promised equality after being mistreated under the Czar

- While we all disagree with Nazi ideology, the society was far from trash.

Even though the Nazis only got 30-40 percent of the vote, by the time WW II started the majority of the country was solidly behind Naziism.


" From my families first hand experience, compared to German troops the Russians treated Poles worse and were uncivilized. The Russian mongol troop stereotype had truth to it"

The Germans killed off 10 percent of the non-Jewish population of Poland and enslaved many of the rest. Seriously, what did the Russians do that could compare?

"Jews did back Communism (if not blatantly run it in Russia). I don't blame them: It promised equality after being mistreated under the Czar "

For every Jew backing communism there were dozens who emigrated to the US and dozens more who stayed in Europe living their lives. The Jews who became high-ranking commisars and so on were often disowned by their families... these same Jews would burn down synagogues along with churched, and were utterly reviled in the Jewish community

Quote:

- While we all disagree with Nazi ideology, the society was far from trash. Americans questioning whether they sided with the right side Nazi vs Soviet, isn't just because of the eventual Cold War. Eastern Europe under Soviet control declined in education and infrastructure. That doesn't occur under the Nazis. German society was (and still is) a model for Western civilization. I disagree Hitler would have ended it, the sick truth is Europe might be better off. 80 years later, white race is declining in numbers and European continent being over-run by outsiders. Nazi or Soviet is an easy choice but the real question is whether Europe is better off today than it would have been without WW2 occurring. Poland would today be 15+ % Jewish. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Education did decline under the Nazis for basically the same reason it did in Russia... only ideologically acceptable subjects were allowed. So for example anything in physics created after 1900 was effectively banned because of all the 20th century Jewish physicists.

I guarantee if Israel existed Poland wouldn't be 15 percent Jewish. The Jews in Eastern Europe didn't particularly want to be there and often didn't even speak the local language. Their presence was just a legacy of the Roman Empire conquering the Jewish state 2000 years ago, and they had no country of their own. Seriously though even if you don't like some minority 15 percent is better than them being dead.
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Old 03-02-2014, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
A FEW? Nearly all of the NKVD was Jewish. The list of Jews in the communist colossus is rather lengthy, and even if there were a few, the ones involved did enormous damage. The Jew Lazar Kaganovic, known as the Butcher of Ukraine, ordered for an estimated seven million Ukrainians to die. Genrich Yagoda was head of the NKVD for some time and lorded over the Gulag system and his methods for rule lead to a hefty casualty lit.

Of course not all Jews were involved in this and many innocent Jews have suffered throughout history. But to expect human beings not to retaliate or for there not be enormous collective backlash of some kind when very powerful people do some damage is naive.

As I said, there's more than a few to point to. And it was not just in the early years of communism in Europe. After the war, many communist countries had Jews in powerful governmental positions.

The old "Hitler was the most evil man who ever lived" and "Nazi Germany was a state of terror" crap is tiresome, outdated, and annoying at this point.
In the Soivet Union, by the 1930s the Jews had very little influence. I think in Hungary there was an ex-Jew who was installed by the Russians after World War II. They'd intentionally install ex-Jews (because they weren't real Jews anymore) so that they wouldn't be swayed by nationalistic elements.

And yes, you don't collectively punish an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few of them, who basically repudiated their heritage anyhow. As for Lazar Kaganovich etc, they were under Stalin's direction and so their influence is exaggerated by the Nazi apologists. But that's not the point. Collective national punishment was the rationale behind the Russians raping all the women of the "master race" after World War II. It's disgusting, and is a war crime.
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Old 03-02-2014, 09:34 AM
 
639 posts, read 1,067,085 times
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Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
I find this hard to believe, as the National Socialists were not in favor of torture and in some cases, camp guards were disciplined for cruelty to inmates.
Uh what?

Torture was routinely used by the Nazis against their enemies, this is not something historians dispute. Learn your history dude.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:20 PM
 
51 posts, read 47,868 times
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Originally Posted by Tallybalt View Post
Hitler was worse than Stalin.

Not only did he start WWII and unleash the horrors of not only the holocaust but invading armies all across Europe, Hitler practiced a deliberate racial cleansing policy. Stalin, for all his horrors and flaws, did not. The brutality of the Red Army as it chased the retreating Nazis was directly in reaction to the terrors the Nazis had unleashed on the Russians when they first invaded the Soviet Union.

Stalin.

Both Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland but the Brits and French declared war on Hitler that started WW 2.


Hitler lasted 12 years in power, Stalin lasted 30 years and his goal was global communism domination under his rule.

Stalin killed more people in the Soviet Union and abroad than Hitler by far.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:45 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,899 posts, read 5,770,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
Re: 5: What genocide would have continued? Eastern Europeans are white and the Nazis were pro-white, so who would they have to genocide?

Re: 8: I'll get back to this later.
5. Because the Nazis considered the Slavs to be Untermensch (inferior and sub-human) as well.

It is worth noting that the Nazis treated certain White ethnic groups very differently. For instance, keep in mind that all or almost all of the Jews that the Nazis killed were White as well, so yeah.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:51 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky8828 View Post
1. The fear is ending up like the USA: more white deaths than births.

2. I agree, a little diversity is a great thing but upwards of 15+ percent of one specific foreign race and religion is too high.

3. That's essentially 2 out of every 10 people have different goals and priorities in mind.

4. After all the suffering and more importantly resilience Poland endured in the past 300 years, to see the culture die off would be quite devastating.
1. Why exactly is this a bad thing, though, if the population will continue to grow?

2. Why, exactly? Honestly, having a country be 15+% Jewish might actually be a very good thing, considering how successful many Jews become once they have sufficient opportunities.

3. Actually, many/most people of different ethnic and racial groups have the same goals and priorities in mind.

4. Polish culture would not have died off even if Poland would have become 15+% Jewish. After all, many Polish Jews probably embraced Polish culture, and an overwhelming majority of Poland's population would have still been ethnic Poles.
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Old 03-02-2014, 04:11 PM
 
3,910 posts, read 9,439,851 times
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Originally Posted by Freewill2014 View Post
Stalin.

Both Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland but the Brits and French declared war on Hitler that started WW 2.


Hitler lasted 12 years in power, Stalin lasted 30 years and his goal was global communism domination under his rule.

Stalin killed more people in the Soviet Union and abroad than Hitler by far.
Are you serious? Germany started the war by invading Poland. They knew that by invading Poland it was a de-facto declaration of war on France and the U.K. Germany wanted to go to war with France. The only reason France and Britain didn't go to war sooner is because of appeasement.

The only reason Stalin killed more people is because he had a larger population to kill from and more time to kill people. Had Hitler been in power 30 years and had 4 times as many people under his control, the numbers would have been similar or worse. Hitler would have exterminated the entire Slavic population had he conquered the U.S.S.R.
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Old 03-02-2014, 04:15 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,899 posts, read 5,770,017 times
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Originally Posted by Nolefan34 View Post
1. Are you serious? Germany started the war by invading Poland. They knew that by invading Poland it was a de-facto declaration of war on France and the U.K. Germany wanted to go to war with France. The only reason France and Britain didn't go to war sooner is because of appeasement.

2. The only reason Stalin killed more people is because he had a larger population to kill from and more time to kill people. Had Hitler been in power 30 years and had 4 times as many people under his control, the numbers would have been similar or worse. Hitler would have exterminated the entire Slavic population had he conquered the U.S.S.R.
1. To be fair, Hitler might have very well thought that France and the U.K. were bluffing once again when they threatened to go to war with him over Poland.

2. Agreed, though I think that Hitler would have kept some Slavic people alive and turned them into Nazi slaves (which really wasn't a fate much better than death).
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Old 03-02-2014, 04:26 PM
 
285 posts, read 747,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin_Muzik_NJ View Post
Hitler didn't almost kill "100% of Jewry"

A better question would be, who was worse? Hitler or Churchill?

Churchill starved millions of Indians to death.

And hundreds of thousands of kids and women in Germany in massive bombarments over the civilian areas.
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