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Old 02-27-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Moscow
2,220 posts, read 3,857,348 times
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Alright, I misspelled lebenstraum. But it does have a meaning in German.
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Old 02-27-2014, 02:30 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,525,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernon-9 View Post
Of course, Stalin.
Stalin killed his own people, Hitler other nationalities (and Jews).
There were approximately 1 million Germans national and ethnic who died in the Holocaust. If you don't want to count Jews as "Germans" which is a whole other debate, then the number is still nearly 400,000 people. Stalin's killings were far more pragmatic, though no more justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
As for the other person NJ regarding the inaccuracy of 58,000 Germans dying in the Bromberg Massacre, perhaps I have the number wrong. It is the number I have read the most and I am not a historian, so I might stand corrected,
Where have you read this number "the most"? I'm fairly curious to see you link a source that says there were 58,000 people killed in the Bromberg Massacre. I have found random claims of there having been 58,000 ethnic Germans killed in the Danzig Corridor in the inter-war years, but none of these are substantiated and are from decidedly "fringe" sources. So, short of a random post on a blog or forum, there is nowhere else that you will find this number. Hitler apologists have long argued that there was "slaughter" of ethnic Germans in Poland, but the only source in existence for such claims is Nazi era propaganda. It simply didn't happen. Again, if you've seen it provide the source.

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just like the number 6,000,000 is used the most in estimating the number of Jews who died under National Socialist rule, even though the estimate listed at Auschwitz for those who perished there has been reduced from 4 million to 1 million, which if that is true, should have the total estimate of dead Jews to 3 million. But whatever the difference, Jews, many of whom were innocent, died and YES, were MISTREATED.
Here's one source for the Holocaust victims number, just so we can all be secure in our information:

The Holocaust - World War II Memorial (U.S. National Park Service)

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Exact numbers never will be known, but an estimated eleven million people died between 1933 and 1945 as a direct result of the Holocaust. About five million were among various groups of people who refused to acknowledge the leadership of Adolf Hitler or those whom the German Fuehrer disliked—political dissenters; artists; homosexuals; the mentally and physically handicapped; priests; the Roma and Sinti; Jehovah’s Witnesses; and Freemasons are just a few examples. Over half of the victims, nearly 6 million, were people of the Jewish faith.
The Jewish Virtual Library has a a rather robust section on the debate over and the attempt to determine an exact number of victims. The low range is around 8.5 million and the high range is around 15 million. This is accounting for all sources and reported numbers. The number most accepted is the aforementioned 11 million.

The Auschwitz "discrepancy" that you are pointing out was very real. In the immediate post war time period, the Soviets estimated that there were four million people killed at Auschwitz. Later scholarly work determined that this number could not be any higher than 1-1.5 million. The part you are missing is that the estimates of total victims of the Holocaust have been decreasing since the end of the war when wildly inflated numbers were given. The 11 million currently quoted is the most heavily vetted and researched number there is and accounts for the "Auschwitz discrepancy" which is something no Holocause researcher has ever tried to hide. If you knew anything about actual Holocaust reserach, you would know this.

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However, I do believe that it occurred BEFORE WWII and it is true that Germans were experiencing persecution in Poland and were forced into refugee camps. But it is a massacre that DID happen. You know, similar to the massacres of Jews, some innocent and some others evil Bolsheviks, that happened in Latvia, Ukraine, and Lithuania. Innocent people of ANY race dying is a tragedy!
The "Bromberg Massacre" in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM occurred before WW2. Prior to the war there was certainly violence towards and clashes between ethnic Germans and Poles. Many of these were tied to rising pro-German sentiment among the Volksdeutsche communities in Poland following Hitler's ascension and included outright acts of protest and violence by the ethnic German communities against Poles. There was a lot of chaos in Poland in the inter-war years and this was part of it. However there was NO mass effort directed at oppressing ethnic Germans in Poland NOR was there any systematic prosecution, murder, etc. of the same. Any claims to "slaughter" or "mass persecution" are based on Nazi era propaganda.

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So you attribute ALL of my writing here to be dribble because I have ONE statistic, a NUMBER, wrong? Because of a number, all the other stuff I speak of is dribble: Hitler's pleas for peace, the Katyn massacre, the Holodomor, etc?
It's a big number and not only that it's a matter of intent and context. If you fell for the neo-Nazi fantasy of Poles slaughtering ethnic Germans before the war, then what other facts are you either misrepresenting or selectively using?

"Hitler's pleas for peace" with whom? England? Everyone knows Hitler didn't want to fight England and France unless they interfered with his plans in the east. His "pleas" were nothing more then trying to be given a free hand to reshape continental Europe and invest Germany as the most powerful nation. As for his desire for "peace with Poland" anyone who has ever actually studied that time period would know that his desire was to have Poland cede its national sovereignty and become a part of the Reich. Essentially surrender without fighting.

Katyn Forest happened and was an atrocity committed by the Soviets against Polish officers and intelligentsia. What of it? It happened during the war, no one denies it and it absolutely pales in comparison to similar actions by the Germans. It's a red herring in this debate.

The Holodomor happened (though it does remain a matter of debate whether it was intentional or a consequence of policy) and I counted it in my estimate of Stalin's deaths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
Oh, by the way, I don't even go to Stormfront.
Oh, then where do you go to get your "information" because it certainly isn't the library...
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:17 PM
 
639 posts, read 1,066,311 times
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I don't know why this is even under debate. Even in sheer numbers, the 30-50 million people who died in Europe during WWII were greater than the numbers killed by Stalin over a longer period. And Hitler's goal was to enslave and kill the people he conquered. There is every reason to think the death toll would have gone up and up if the Nazis had won.

And this BS about the communists conquering Europe. Seriously, Stalin never had any plans for invading Nazi Germany, and given their total control of Germany the Nazis had nothing to worry about internally. Where else might have communism taken over??? Not the UK, it was never popular there. France? There was not about to be a coup there either. Spain? A fascist dictatorship for years, lasted until 1975.

The whole communism issue was an excuse the Nazis used to justify invading just about every country they could. Judge them by their actions, not the words of their apologists 70 years later. They killed off every Jew they could find, as well as the Slavic upper classes, and were working on using the rest of the Slavic peoples as slave labor forever. And in Mein Kampf and elsewhere it was made abundantly clear they really wanted "Aryan" control over the whole world. They didn't exactly hide their intents.

However horrible Stalin was, the typical Joe Shmo on the street of any city in the world was not in risk of being killed or enslaved by Stalin. Science and culture went on inside the Soviet Union. Life continued, however miserably.

By the way, have you noticed that Hitler, Goebbels, etc didn't look particularly Aryan? I've known Jews blonder than them.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:25 PM
 
821 posts, read 1,097,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis View Post

By the way, have you noticed that Hitler, Goebbels, etc didn't look particularly Aryan? I've known Jews blonder than them.
Aryan is another word for Indo-European, and all those men you mention are White/European. You would be correct if you said they didn't appear Nordic. There are several racial groups within the white race, Alpine, Nordic, Mediterranean, Dinaric, and East Baltic.

Goebbels was a mediterranean type, Hitler part Nordic, part Alpine. The whole outdated thing of, "They wanted everyone to be blonde and blue eyed" is laughable and Hitler never mentioned any of that crap either. Much of the Nazi leadership was not fully Nordic.

The other myth tied to this is the anti-Slav myth, another particularly laughable one considering many high ranking Nazis had Slavic last names, such as Radziej, Zalewski, Chmelewski, Rendulic, Polewacz, and so on.

Of course some Jews are blonde; many are part white.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:40 PM
 
821 posts, read 1,097,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis View Post

The whole communism issue was an excuse the Nazis used to justify invading just about every country they could.
Right, just an excuse considering communist revolutionaries were attempting to take over Germany, not to mention the Germans were aware of how the communists were treating the populations over whom they ruled in Hungary, Ukraine, and so on (you know, with death), and didn't want that happening to them. Ever hear of Rosa Luxemburg?

Quote:

Judge them by their actions, not the words of their apologists 70 years later. They killed off every Jew they could find, as well as the Slavic upper classes, and were working on using the rest of the Slavic peoples as slave labor forever.
They didn't kill off every Jew they could find.

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And in Mein Kampf and elsewhere it was made abundantly clear they really wanted "Aryan" control over the whole world.
Yeah, where in the book does he say that? I'd like to see it. If in the book he says that, I will stand corrected.

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They didn't exactly hide their intents.
You're right, they didn't.

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However horrible Stalin was, the typical Joe Shmo on the street of any city in the world was not in risk of being killed or enslaved by Stalin.
Tell that to the relatives of millions of INNOCENT people who lost their lives in death camps, starved, and tortured throughout the Soviet Union.

And what German of good character had to fear for their lives in NS Germany?

Science and culture went on inside the Soviet Union. Life continued, however miserably.
Quote:
By the way, have you noticed that Hitler, Goebbels, etc didn't look particularly Aryan? I've known Jews blonder than them.
As said, not every white person has blonde hair and blue eyes, so what does this have to do with anything?
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:43 PM
 
821 posts, read 1,097,144 times
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Average person didn't have to fear for their lives under Stalin's rule; they were just miserable. Science flourished... all while this happened..
life in the gulag - Google Search
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:58 PM
 
18,860 posts, read 27,297,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallybalt View Post
He's probably referring to this:

Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see it was a very complex situation so specifically blaming it on Churchill is misleading.

Stalin and Hitler specifically ordered the massacres of millions of people. Churchill did not.
Written documented proof, please.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:00 PM
 
3,910 posts, read 9,434,589 times
Reputation: 1954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebrator View Post
Aryan is another word for Indo-European, and all those men you mention are White/European. You would be correct if you said they didn't appear Nordic. There are several racial groups within the white race, Alpine, Nordic, Mediterranean, Dinaric, and East Baltic.

Goebbels was a mediterranean type, Hitler part Nordic, part Alpine. The whole outdated thing of, "They wanted everyone to be blonde and blue eyed" is laughable and Hitler never mentioned any of that crap either. Much of the Nazi leadership was not fully Nordic.

The other myth tied to this is the anti-Slav myth, another particularly laughable one considering many high ranking Nazis had Slavic last names, such as Radziej, Zalewski, Chmelewski, Rendulic, Polewacz, and so on.

Of course some Jews are blonde; many are part white.

"Of course some Jews are blonde; many are part white."

Wow. If I didn't know your posting history, I would have let this go as a mis-type. But given your pro-Nazi sentiments, it isn't surprising you would make a comment like this.

Many Jews are fully "white, not "part white". They have skin colors as pale as an ethic German and blonde hair, blue eyes. You are essentially implying that there is no such thing as a white Jew, and that a Jew must be bread with a non-Jew to become "part white". You are straight out of the S.S.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:00 PM
 
18,860 posts, read 27,297,121 times
Reputation: 20198
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
I think when you get over a certain number of deaths, "worse" becomes an inanity.

Allegedly, and just allegedly, as I never saw it in print, Stalin said - murdering 100 men is a crime. Murdering millions - statistics.
Once again, though it's bloody true, I have no evidence to proof this. It's hearsay evidence.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:09 PM
 
821 posts, read 1,097,144 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolefan34 View Post

"Of course some Jews are blonde; many are part white."

Wow. If I didn't know your posting history, I would have let this go as a mis-type. But given your pro-Nazi sentiments, it isn't surprising you would make a comment like this.
Yet again, another ad hominem attack. I don't know how identifying Jews as not being fully white has anything to do with being pro-Nazi, which I am not. It's as harmless as saying our president is part white.

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Many Jews are fully "white, not "part white". They have skin colors as pale as an ethic German and blonde hair, blue eyes.
Of course some have very fair skin, even fairer than some Europeans. Race is more than skin color.

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You are essentially implying that there is no such thing as a white Jew,
They have varying degrees of whiteness and if a white person converts to Judaism, then in the religious sense he or she is considered Jewish.

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and that a Jew must be bread with a non-Jew to become "part white".
From what I know, Jews have been a racially mixed group for quite some time. Jews have several features which are not white, despite skin color, in the same way someone with only a trace of black blood might have African features despite having fair skin.

What is "hateful" or "pro-Nazi" about any of this I say here.

Quote:
You are straight out of the S.S.
Didn't the SS end in 1945? Strange I can be part of a non-existent organization.
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