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Old 05-09-2014, 06:24 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,296,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
Native Americans were butchering each other for thousands of years before the first white man even thought of sailing west. Their casinos are getting revenge on said evil white man.

Blacks? Their fellow Africans who captured & sold their ancestors into slavery to be shipped over here should be first in that apology line.
So ScoPro, if you were to travel to India today and a woman attempted to sell you a teenage girl to be your permanent sexual escort, would you purchase the teenage girl? Would you justify in your mind purchasing the teenage girl that it's okay because it is one female selling another? Would you justify the existence of child the teenage girl bore from you as legitimate because it was the woman who sold you the girl that was truly evil, thus making your rape of the girl perfectly acceptable? (Hey, the girl was already being abused by the woman so why don't I just pile on?)

When you are long dead and gone, and your former teenaged sexual partner has died of old age, and even your illegitimate child has died of old age after having had her own children, do you want to put your "legitimate" grandchildren in the position of having to tell you "illegitimate" grandchildren that you raping their underage grandmother was completely justified because some random woman was able to capture her and sell her to you? (Now if it was a man that had sold the teenage girl that would have been beyond the pale, but a woman selling another female makes it A-Ok!)

You and all of your Fox News ilk sound like complete morons when you trot out the "Blacks selling other Blacks into slavery argument". Here is a painting of a Dutch slave trader walking his "booty" back through the bush:


Notice this includes children? Here is a painting of a Dutch slave trader licking his captives to see if their skin is salty:

Europeans used to routinely lick their slaves to see if they were salty. Those who retained salt had a better chance of surviving the oft-deadly trans-Atlantic voyage. Due to this propensity of finding salt-retaining slaves by licking them is believed to be the reason why so many black Americans have hypertension. The salt retaining Africans were by and large transported to slave colonies in the "New World" and the non-salty Africans were left on the shore crying as you can see in the above painting. Wow, that's a lot of licking.

As you can see, it was Europeans who painted these depictions of the slave trade and were completely complicit in slave trafficking. Should a black person have offered another black for sale, the "non-black" person could have easily said "No thanks, I think the selling of human beings is reprehensible and I believe you will rot in hell for selling your fellow man." That's not what was done. According to you, a black was standing on the shore shouting "Blacks for sale! Blacks for sale!". In looking at the size of the African descent population in the Western Hemisphere, I think we can be safely assured that the response was "Cool! How much?"

Whoever purchased a slave from a slaver regardless of race was complete slime. The feudal lords and monarchs that held Eastern Europeans as chattel by the millions (hence the origin of the word "slave" - a derivative of the ethnic group "Slav") were complete slime. The persons who either watched or assumed Native Americans were butchering each other then took it upon themselves to pick off the survivors rather than stop it AT MINIMUM ignore it were complete slime. The men who go to Bangkok today and purchase captive girls who are sex slaves are complete slime.

Today, Sub-Saharan Africans are 15% of the world's population and Sub-Saharan Africa has 15% of the world's slaves. So 85% of contemporary slavery doesn't even involve Africans. For you to associate slavery as being some intraracial conflict within "racial" groups simply means you need to pop that bubble of ignorance you are living in.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:58 AM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,496,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
United States. Biggest atrocity was against its own native people.
A very good lesson in protecting your borders and culture.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:28 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,394,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post

If the measure of accountability is based solely body counts and not the standards (moral or otherwise) that the citizenry demand of their own governments, then clearly the British have a LOT of 'splaining to do over anybody else.
Gee, we're not all bad..... The British Empire had it's good points. We were trying to 'civilize' the natives, and of course, use them to enrich England.

Many countries we made part of the Empire still have things like the justice system we brought to them. India has a massive railway system built by us.

For all our qualities and faults, we don't have anything like Vietnam on our resume........
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:47 AM
 
28,896 posts, read 54,011,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Dave View Post
Gee, we're not all bad..... The British Empire had it's good points. We were trying to 'civilize' the natives, and of course, use them to enrich England.

Many countries we made part of the Empire still have things like the justice system we brought to them. India has a massive railway system built by us.

For all our qualities and faults, we don't have anything like Vietnam on our resume........
You are kidding right?

Look, I like Britain. Not trying to demonize it. But you seem to forget things such as the slave trade, the casual brutality of your ancestors in the Caribbean, the behavior of the British in India and Africa, concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War, and a list that goes on and on. Jeez. We could write an entire thread on Ireland alone. Heck, we could devote an entire thread to the Potato Famine. An estimated million Irish died in the Potato Famine, which is the statistical equivalent of several Vietnams.

Nope. The British Empire definitely does NOT have clean hands. Anything but.

Last edited by cpg35223; 05-13-2014 at 06:56 AM..
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:05 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,394,060 times
Reputation: 31334
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
You are kidding right?

Look, I like Britain. Not trying to demonize it. But you seem to forget things such as the slave trade, the casual brutality of your ancestors in the Caribbean, the behavior of the British in India and Africa, concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War, and a list that goes on and on. Jeez. We could write an entire thread on Ireland alone. Heck, we could devote an entire thread to the Potato Famine.

Nope. The British Empire definitely does NOT have clean hands. Anything but.
There were no slaves in England. In the Caribbean, yes of course.... can't deny it.

But, we having nothing of the scale of Vietnam for sheer slaughter. Even today, 40 years after the end of the war, there are still problems from the spraying of agent orange.

How about depleted uranium in Iraq? Come on now, it makes our Empire wars look like small fry.

What about the Native Americans? Almost totally wiped out by the 1880s. That, I have to admit has a lot to do with my race. Lots of British, and their immediate descendants, involved with that massacre.

None of us have clean hands. But I still believe much of the British Empire did good work. Much of what we brought to those countries, remains to this day.

Have you anything remaining in Vietnam you can say the same?
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:40 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,394,060 times
Reputation: 31334
The title of this thread, to me says it all. You won't find such a thread in the UK section. We harbour no guilt about the British Empire....... none at all.

America, in the Second World War helped to save the world from tyranny. Even then, it was a war you entered with reluctance, only after being attacked by the Japanese. Up until the Russians were attacked in the summer of 1941, we in England were on our own fighting the Nazis.

Many brave Americans fought and died in that war for freedom. But since then, it has been mainly disaster. This I believe is a cause of guilt in thinking Americans.

Vietnam was a disaster. More bombs dropped on Vietnam, than on Germany in the Second World War. Just a slaughter of many innocent people. All for some hair brained scheme known as the 'domino principle.' Many nodded at this idea in the sixties. Stop them communists in their tracks. Well, it didn't work out too well.

Iraq, another shambles. Many billions of dollars thrown at this war. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. But the Iraqi people got a little 'shock & awe.' Someone had to pay for 9/11....... they fit the bill. Even though they had nothing to do with it. Saddam had tweaked America's ear once too often.

I remember the day of 9/11........ during the constant news coverage on that day, there was a short glimpse in the Gaza Strip. The people there were jumping up and down in glee, and handing out candy. I would think as I saw it, many Americans would have too. I was shocked. But Americans need to think why they are hated in many parts of the world. All you're trying to do is help..... right?
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Old 05-13-2014, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
376 posts, read 486,885 times
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I will confine myself for now to saying that any American who goes around apologizing for perceived transgressions by America, past or present, is lacking in wedding tackle if he is a male. Further, there is no lower scum than an American who claims to be Canadian when overseas.

There have been some good treatments on the phenomenon of Anti-Americanism: one such is Jean Francois Revel's "Anti-Americanism"; another is a Hollander's "Understanding Anti-Americanism", which deals with the subject in a manner specific to its country of origin - certainly French Anti-Americanism has different motives and flavors from that of Germans, Saudi, or Malaysians.

That a certain subset of Americans feels the need for such cringing masochism is to a large degree attributable to the inherent Protestant character of the country's history and makeup. The fall of the mainline Protestant denominations of the latter 20th Century entailed the institutional and civil authority of these churches being replaced by a more informal set of secularized mores that nonetheless are recognizable as evolutions (some would say devolutions) of the former belief and social system. Hence the new orthodoxies, rites, and devils. For an excellent discussion of this point, see "An Anxious Age: The Post-Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of America" by Joseph Bottum.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:13 PM
 
28,896 posts, read 54,011,888 times
Reputation: 46668
Quote:
Originally Posted by English Dave View Post
There were no slaves in England. In the Caribbean, yes of course.... can't deny it.

But, we having nothing of the scale of Vietnam for sheer slaughter. Even today, 40 years after the end of the war, there are still problems from the spraying of agent orange.

How about depleted uranium in Iraq? Come on now, it makes our Empire wars look like small fry.

What about the Native Americans? Almost totally wiped out by the 1880s. That, I have to admit has a lot to do with my race. Lots of British, and their immediate descendants, involved with that massacre.

None of us have clean hands. But I still believe much of the British Empire did good work. Much of what we brought to those countries, remains to this day.

Have you anything remaining in Vietnam you can say the same?
My word. You really don't know your own country's history. There were quite a few court cases in English in the late 17th and early 18th century where slavery on English soil was allowed. The matter remained quite unsettled for awhile. And don't forget that slavery in the United States was decidedly an English institution, with slaves being brought to America in the holds of English ships to work in English colonies, sending the profits back to England.

And far, far more native Americans died from smallpox than conquest. The English were adept at using smallpox as a biological weapon during the 18th centuries. So you have that on your conscience as well.

More than 1,000,000 Irishmen died in the Potato Famine. And, in more recent history, several million died in the Bengal Famine, even as Churchill refused to send foodstuffs. And those are a just a couple of the manufactured famines that took place in the British Empire. Compared to that, the quarter-million South Vietnamese that died during the United States military intervention in Vietnam seems a little paltry, don't you think? I mean, the British killed that many civilians in Ceylon in one rebellion, where standing orders were to kill any civilian over the age of eight.

Add to that the dozens of colonial wars and the British don't exactly reflect the best of humanity. Fresh research shows that tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of Kikuyus died in concentration camps during the Mau Mau revolt. The British didn't keep body counts. They just shoved the corpses into mass graves. Roughly 10% of the Boers died in concentration camps during the Boer Wars. During a drought that hit India in the 1870s, there was ample surpluses of wheat and rice, yet Lord Lytton not only commanded the export of the grain, but actively outlawed relief efforts that would stand in the way of market forces. The only way Indians could get food was in the labor camps, which had an annualized mortality rate of 94%. Millions died as a result.

And the list goes on. So for you to argue that somehow the British conducted its empire with greater morality than the United States conducted its foreign policy speaks to an incredible moral vanity on your part, likely created by lots of Land Of Hope And Glory nonsense. No, the butcher's bill for the British was larger. It is an act of denial to say otherwise.

http://www.monbiot.com/2005/12/27/ho...ts-holocausts/
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Old 05-14-2014, 02:35 AM
 
Location: England
26,273 posts, read 8,394,060 times
Reputation: 31334
^^^ So, if we did so much evil, why do we have a Commonwealth of many nations headed by the Queen? Why would countries want to belong to such an organization led by the British?

I can not deny the things you mention. But, you will still find a fondness for the British in many former colonies. Running an Empire is a dirty business.

Why do you think such a thread like this exists? You will find no guilt at all from the British about the Empire. I have never once in my long life heard anyone say anything in regret, or guilt. Plus of course, it was a long time ago. Most people involved in it are dead.

The difference with the Americans of course, is that you try to convince yourselves what you do is for the common good, or in 'America's Interests.' For instance travelling round the world in an attempt to stop the advance of Communism, as in Vietnam.

Then in more recent times, we have Iraq. Another shambles. Unfortunately, we went along with you on that one. I remember Colin Powell, and his obvious embarrassment as he presented the 'evidence' of Saddam's weaponry.

Tony Blair, our Prime Minister at the time, was cheered to the rafters after a speech he made in Congress in support of the war in Iraq. Now, he looks over his shoulder at threats he will be arrested for war crimes.

We both have badly injured servicemen from that war. Good soldiers crippled fighting a war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. When we send our soldiers to fight, we have damn well better have a good reason for doing so. Not to fight a paper tiger like Saddam.

Before that war, US led sanctions left Iraq pitifully short of essential medical supplies. We punished children for the so called sins of their fathers. Now after that war, we left depleted uranium to poison future generations.

America has unlimited power, and it chooses to use only a part of that power. Any guilt Americans feel I believe, is the damage it leaves behind after the war finishes. They are wars that keep on giving.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:07 AM
 
47 posts, read 48,699 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
My word. You really don't know your own country's history. <snip> During a drought that hit India in the 1870s, there was ample surpluses of wheat and rice, yet Lord Lytton not only commanded the export of the grain, but actively outlawed relief efforts that would stand in the way of market forces. The only way Indians could get food was in the labor camps, which had an annualized mortality rate of 94%. Millions died as a result. /
And how. And there is a much worse one in spirit, and one of the worst in the Great Leap Forward type of hugely cynical and negligent homocidial death toll:

Bengal famine of 1770 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ten million dead, due to drug lord greed.

Get this, the ruling British protagonists seem to have said, in my years long studies, "We need opium to enslave the upper crust of the world's most populated country and make tons of money. Let's force this other ancient civilization to grow it, allowing the locals to only have opium and indigo. They can not eat, so about 10 million die, but no great loss. Yet we are losing money, because the ugly urchins died."

"Note to collective self, do damage control and take those malingers to the morgue. Then artfully switch to Plan B, having 'our' rubes who-happen-to-be-related-to-us in the backward American colonies to pay/cover up our indiscretions. Can you spell a deft Tea tax?"

"Yoicks and tallyho, they rebel against our actions of the Tea tax and throw us out, while all of the major Western European major powers except Holland and Prussia cruelly rise against us when we are weakest. Woe is us! The world does not know what poets we were, or what 'our' outcast Quakers, non conformists, and such did for everyone by starting the Industrial Revolution at the same time, while we snobby gentry sneered at those productive ones. How unfair! Fiddlesticks, it's now already 1839 and lets have a quick emotional release by a kick buttocks Opium War with an empire fortunately having acute dysentery but glaring at us from the floor."


Indeed. I have been watching the residing Colonel Blimps of these collective forums for a week now, all that is needed. Especially galling is their air of superiority concerning Vietnam, a country that has successfully waged guerrilla warfare on this very same world's largest country (China), yet America was doddering and failed to copy the successes of Malaya/Malaysia (dealing with 1st a minority Chinese force and then a foreign Indonesian one). Actually, we did copy the strategic hamlets in 1962 and it failed terribly as Viets had spirit gods that precluded the idea, becoming the beginning of the end. And PM Harold Wilson himself impishly admitted to screwing the US, I recall reading in a book the words were 'sticking it to'. It was said so bad that any British military person who volunteered to fight in Vietnam (for the US or Anzacs?) was severely punished, presumed by reduction in rank.

There was, and still is, greatness in Britain, with all due respect given. There also was unbelievable levels of perfidy and arrogance, mostly by those of whom were who Winston Churchill chided his fawning son as those people are nothing but "glittering scum who rise to the top" where as the working businessmen drive society. We see glimmers of that from some fecund, prolific British poster scribes squatting at this site.

Of course I am biased. My grandfather, who died in 2002 at 101 years of age, was a British subject, never became a US citizen of Scottish ancestry (Stuart surnamed, via Royal Stuarts Isle of Butte, direct descendents of the kings about the time of Queen Mary), and was raised in a well connected family of said glittering scum. (Some in family currently do booming banking business in London, and have since the 1910's.) He left when his family said 'when are you going to join?' 'The only fighting I am going to do is for Uncle Sam.' 'You are nothing more than a damn Yank'. He never went back after that in 1939, leaving with family. (And grandmother had her own situations, like when all the ladies were atwitter with one of their members graduating from college, with a worthless degree it is of little doubt. 'What's so great about that?' Sneer. 'Well, you don't have a degree.' Matter of fact she did, graduating with a science degree in scholarship, a Kansas farm girl graduating at age 19. 'But you never told us!' they then fawned in a whine. It was straight out of Pride and Prejudice pages.

You all are not as bad as the apologist and arrogant French who are now forever trying to tell everyone how most of the world's scientists and intellect were French in the 1700's, but neglecting to properly mention they then threw it all away on revolutionary political madness and by having massively over centralization (so others profited from said ideas). But still, the rank smell rankles, of at best dealing with those living in the past while insisting to wear extremely rose coloured glasses. And you are claiming to be wholly objective in the subjective. Please remember.

Last edited by Cnewton; 05-14-2014 at 06:15 AM.. Reason: Wrong Tax
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