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You are looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, knowing that the expansion attempt brought ultimate ruin to Japan. The Japanese did not have this benefit available to them when they were making their decisions.
I also do not see you addressing the consequences of Japan simply giving up their expansion program. Why, in their minds, should they have had to accepted second class status? Why should they be told the limits of their ability to expand by powers which would not accept such dictates from Japan regarding their expansionist plans?
Really? It appears to me that you are neglecting it because it is inconvenient to your thesis, pretending that it was not a factor when obviously it was a huge factor.
I don't know, it seems to be that you are the one who is adding emotion to the discussion while the fellow you're quoting is being quite objective.
Unsettomati is merely stating what he believes what actions were dumb or smart, not wrong or right in a morale sense. I think he is pretty much right for the most part.
The idea that Japan HAD to attack Pearl Harbor or be regulated as second class citizens seems like poor logic to me.
I don't know, it seems to be that you are the one who is adding emotion to the discussion while the fellow you're quoting is being quite objective.
Unsettomati is merely stating what he believes what actions were dumb or smart, not wrong or right in a morale sense. I think he is pretty much right for the most part.
The idea that Japan HAD to attack Pearl Harbor or be regulated as second class citizens seems like poor logic to me.
Could you please point out the specific statements of mine which led you to conclude that I was adding emotion to the discussion, I am unable to identify any of them.
I wrote an explanation which summarized the attitudes of the Japanese people and the Japanese leaders toward their own sense of racial superiority, and their sense of an equal entitlement to behave in a manner consistent with the western colonial powers. Unsettomati replied that this was irrelevant. How that can be so in a discussion of the the decision of Japan to go to war, eludes me completely. It is like saying that the attitudes of the native tribes is irrelevant in a discussion of Manifest Destiny.
Do you agree with that? That reviewing the cultural attitudes which led to the Japanese decision to go to war has no relevancy in a discussion about that decision?
No, not at all. Japan attacked the US and the Europeans so she could continue to expand her wealth and power. .
Whats wrong with that? The US, every day since, has pursued policy that was primarily directed at expanding our wealth and power. There was absolutely no reason on earth to suggest that the USA, and not Japan, had an entitlement to expand into the Pacific ocean, and America's annexation of the Hawaiian islands was highly suspect if not outright illegal.
Two relevant factors: First, the Americans had already threatened the legitimate national interest of Japan with oil sanctions. Second, the US had stationed the entirety of its very formidable Pacific Fleet in one spot, on the edge of and strategically ideal for an all-out invasion of Japanese interests. From the Japanese standpoint, it was akin to the stationing of Soviet missiles in Cuba, and equally worthy of a defensive tactic.
Further, it was not an "attack on the USA", it was a surgical strike on a strictly naval target, in a colonial outpost thousands of miles from the USA proper, with no land-based damage or casualties.
The attack on Pearl was not the main part of the plan; the main goal was to successfully invade the Philippines and Singapore; solidifying IJ's hold on SE Asia.
Attacking the US fleet was to keep the Americans from interrupting that plan; it was believed by Japanese leadership that America has no stomach for a fight and would give up on our East Asian interests.
I suspect Japan didn't really want to invade the Continental US... that fear was implanted and nurtured by our own propagandists.
Of course, that still doesn't mean we shouldn't have gone to war; as long as we had uninterrupted access to the resources and industrial production we needed to make war along with the capacity to continually interrupt the enemy's, we were guaranteed to win eventually. The Axis gambled that we didn't want a fight and would have just let them do their thing; obviously it was a bad bet.
Let me see. I, you can call me Japan, want to rob my neighbor's house because that's what me and the gang have been doing for years. But now for the last 20 years the old gang does not want to do it anymore. To make matters worse the old gang is now trying to stop me from robbing the neighbors!
They want me to back down. But I won't back down! I want what's mine. Just because it currently belongs to someone else is no matter. So if they want to stop me then I will attack them as well - and I will blame them for it!
The situation was one where a militarist dominated government had to choose between war and accepting a shameful insult. These were 20th men who subscribed to the severe Code of Bushido and who identified their self worth in its values of chivalry, courage, and the complete and unquestioning loyalty to superiors. It was a warrior's code where risk was a noble duty and death the ultimate fulfillment of purpose.
The shameful insult which they were being expected to endure was Japan being ordered by the western powers to cease their attempts to build an empire. This flew in the face of a cultural mentality which had its roots in the forced opening of Japan to the west in the mid 19th Century. This incredibly closed society then made the decision to utterly transform itself. If they, who regarded themselves as an extraordinarily enlightened race, could be bullied by western colonial powers, then the time had come to assert themselves. To that end in an astonishing rapid turnaround, Japan remade itself into a European style nation, including the building of a European style army and navy.
They wet their toes in internationalism by being on the winning side of WW I, and in European style, they emerged with some former German colonies as their prizes of war. As the 1930's began, they decided to embark on an expansion program, one which eventually would leave them in a position to dominate eastern Asia...as they thought was their right. And as they thought would meet with the approval of their newest, bestest buddies, the western powers.
China was a nation in serial chaos, divided not just by the Nationalist/Communist split, but also by numerous regional warlords. Japan saw it as their duty, as the major power in Asia, to impose order on that chaos, and again, expected that this would meet with the approval of their former WW I allies.
When instead their activity in China was condemned by the United States, they were puzzled, then infuriated as it dawned on them that they were being told that they were just not good enough to be in the Big Boys Colonial Club.
That was the insult that these men of warrior sensibilities were being asked to embrace. When the US oil embargo was enacted, Japan had enough stock for 18 more months of warfare. They either had to seize new sources, or give up their attempt to control China. It was going to be war, or perpetual second class status.
In that a perceived shameful choice was being presented to men who lived by a code which made no room for shame, I suppose that arguing that Japan was "forced" into deciding in favor of war isn't entirely unfair. Once you called their bluff, how could a nation dominated by the mentality which gripped Japan at this time, not respond with aggression?
It was a clash greatly fueled by the racist attitudes of both sides. Japan saw itself as the superior race of Asia, and since their transformation, also the equal of the European races if not also superior to them. For the American attitude toward the Japanese race, just check the propaganda posters from the war where the Japanese are depicted with buck teeth, glasses, monkey ears, and laughing as they perpetrate some grotesque outrage upon an innocent and virginal western woman.
Would the US have remained neutral then if Pearl Harbour wouldnt have been hit.... I reemember as a child hearing things like.... the Americans came in at the tail end and claimed they won the war....
Just wish Blair would have thought a lot more about sending our troops into Afghan territory to suit and pander to Bush.. both a pair of arses, who should be on trial instead of applauded.
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