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Old 03-18-2014, 01:28 AM
 
366 posts, read 979,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
You are looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, knowing that the expansion attempt brought ultimate ruin to Japan. The Japanese did not have this benefit available to them when they were making their decisions.

I also do not see you addressing the consequences of Japan simply giving up their expansion program. Why, in their minds, should they have had to accepted second class status? Why should they be told the limits of their ability to expand by powers which would not accept such dictates from Japan regarding their expansionist plans?


Really? It appears to me that you are neglecting it because it is inconvenient to your thesis, pretending that it was not a factor when obviously it was a huge factor.
^Your analysis was really insightful.

It reminded me of how Russia did the same thing when she forced Japan to return some Chinese territories to China even though the Japanese have won the war against China in 1895. This resulted in Japan's revenge which succeeded when the Japanese crushed the Russian fleet in 1905. Japan's prominence to the world stage then was noted and she was at the height of her confidence.

But soon enough, the US filled in the vacuum left behind by Russia as Japan's fate have since then constantly been at the Americans' mercy.

First, their navy was allowed only up to three-fifth the size of Britain and the US as dictated by the Washington Treaty by the end of WWI.

Second, having relied on the US for at least 80 percent of its oil imports, the US trade embargo (and subsequent demand for her retreat from China) altogether forced Japan into a corner and thus arguably into the attack on Pearl Harbor.

With the US blocking Japan's goal of being treated as a true equal to her Western counterparts time and again, the Japanese could seek nothing but revenge. Pearl Harbor was that very moment that demonstrated their revenge on the US for all the humiliation or shame that they had suffered. So in a way, the attack on Pearl Harbor was like the Japanese annihilation of the Russian fleet.

However, the outcome differed in that Japan failed to destroy the 3 missing US aircraft carriers at that point of time, which somehow sealed their fate in the Pacific War.

Having said that...

If you represent a country that is new to the colonial scene and wants to have a share in the colonial game (but are constantly overshadowed by the veteran players), you would understand how Japan truly feels and the rationale behind her animosity and ultimate attack on the US.

But if you have already been a veteran player yourself, of course you would be on the US side.

Unfortunately for the Japanese, the 1930s and 40s onwards were no longer a time when colonialism was considered cool, partly because of the concept of self-determination as established since the end of WWI.

Adding to that, was the competing interests in the Asia-Pacific region with the US who had colonies in the region (i.e. Philippines, Pacific islands). A region under the Japanese sphere of influence including China would threaten US interests, which contributed to the trade embargo on Japan.

Last edited by fellowjoe; 03-18-2014 at 02:03 AM..
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:49 AM
 
Location: New York City
4,035 posts, read 10,263,220 times
Reputation: 3753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist110 View Post
Having Japan invade Malaysia and Singapore would have still infuriated the British. Thus, it might have been better for Japan to invade the Dutch East Indies and nowhere else, if Japan was intent on continuing its expansionist policies, that is.
London was so overstretched defending the home islands and the Mediterranean, there’s not much they could have done about it.

Regarding America, the real question is: barring a direct attack, how much Japanese expansion would the U.S. be willing to accept before declaring war? Given the isolationist attitude at the time, is answer is probably quite a lot of expansion. The Japanese made the one choice that guaranteed America’s entry into the war.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:32 AM
 
6,622 posts, read 5,848,077 times
Reputation: 16857
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
Just wish Blair would have thought a lot more about sending our troops into Afghan territory to suit and pander to Bush.. both a pair of arses, who should be on trial instead of applauded.
I realize this is a bit off topic, but let's just pretend it's on topic by comparing it to Pearl Harbor, as many have done. Put yourself in Bush's shoes. What would you have done as a response to the 9/11 attacks?

Iraq is debatable, but hardly anyone debates the justification for going into Afghanistan.

Similarly no one would dispute the American response to Japan's attack. There was simply no alternative. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

As to whether Britain should have gotten involved... well, Britain has been a world power for about 400 years now. Are they supposed to just quit being involved, let an ally go it alone, give up on fighting the good fight? I was proud and gratified to see they stepped up, as were most Americans.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
18,442 posts, read 18,583,615 times
Reputation: 28501
Blair had a choice and chose to brown nose Bush...
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Old 03-18-2014, 04:30 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,116 posts, read 13,138,166 times
Reputation: 10088
Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowjoe View Post
^Your analysis was really insightful.

It reminded me of how Russia did the same thing when she forced Japan to return some Chinese territories to China even though the Japanese have won the war against China in 1895. This resulted in Japan's revenge which succeeded when the Japanese crushed the Russian fleet in 1905. Japan's prominence to the world stage then was noted and she was at the height of her confidence.

But soon enough, the US filled in the vacuum left behind by Russia as Japan's fate have since then constantly been at the Americans' mercy.

First, their navy was allowed only up to three-fifth the size of Britain and the US as dictated by the Washington Treaty by the end of WWI.

Second, having relied on the US for at least 80 percent of its oil imports, the US trade embargo (and subsequent demand for her retreat from China) altogether forced Japan into a corner and thus arguably into the attack on Pearl Harbor.

With the US blocking Japan's goal of being treated as a true equal to her Western counterparts time and again, the Japanese could seek nothing but revenge. Pearl Harbor was that very moment that demonstrated their revenge on the US for all the humiliation or shame that they had suffered. So in a way, the attack on Pearl Harbor was like the Japanese annihilation of the Russian fleet.

However, the outcome differed in that Japan failed to destroy the 3 missing US aircraft carriers at that point of time, which somehow sealed their fate in the Pacific War.

Having said that...

If you represent a country that is new to the colonial scene and wants to have a share in the colonial game (but are constantly overshadowed by the veteran players), you would understand how Japan truly feels and the rationale behind her animosity and ultimate attack on the US.

But if you have already been a veteran player yourself, of course you would be on the US side.

Unfortunately for the Japanese, the 1930s and 40s onwards were no longer a time when colonialism was considered cool, partly because of the concept of self-determination as established since the end of WWI.

Adding to that, was the competing interests in the Asia-Pacific region with the US who had colonies in the region (i.e. Philippines, Pacific islands). A region under the Japanese sphere of influence including China would threaten US interests, which contributed to the trade embargo on Japan.
I am glad you mentioned the bolded because I see a few people saying that somehow Japan was surprised that her attacking China would meet international resistance.

The world was indeed changing and this was known to the Japanese. Gandhi's "non-cooperation" movement for the independence of India was in full swing since the early 1920s. In 1922 with the Chinese May 4th movement along with American pressure - forced Japan to return Shandong to China. And since the 1934 Tydings act, the United States was preparing for the independence of the Philippines in 10 years.

The problem was not that Japan did not know that the world had changed after WW1 but that she thought she could still get away with her imperialist aggressions. When Japan invaded Chinese Manchuria in 1931, the League of Nations condemned Japan as the aggressor by the vote of 42 to 1 (Japan was the 1!). But then the League did nothing. Similar situation when Mussolini attacked Ethiopia, although here we begin to see a few sanctions against fascist Italy, including some by the United States.

The history of the 1930s is a history of how the western democracies were gradually pushed into taking action by the continual aggression of the 3 main Axis powers. For example in 1939, Britain and France finally stood up to Hitler when he attacked Poland.

Similarly the USA, Britain and some other allies did not go to war with Japan but did put economic penalties on Japan for her repeated aggressions. Unlike the war with the Germans, Japan was given an opportunity to find some diplomatic way out of her aggression. Instead she used the time to prepare for war, including the Pearl Harbor attack. The rest is history.

Shandong Problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Non-cooperation movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-18-2014, 05:49 PM
 
Location: On The Road Full Time RVing
2,341 posts, read 3,482,902 times
Reputation: 2230
Quote:
Originally Posted by unseengundam View Post
Japan's actions of attacking Pearl Harbor to keep the US from interfering in WWII also seemed counter intuitive. Did Japan have no better course of action of keep the US stopping Japanese invasion of Asia?

Also, I have often heard the US had pushed Japan into corner by cutting of oil supplies. Do you think US actions such these forced Japan to take on an aggressive attack on the US?

Yes the US did and President Roosevelt was behind it all and
over 2400 soldiers died because of it in one day, not counting the wounded.

That way the US would have to defend it's self and also be able to go after Hitler
which the American people did not want to do but President Roosevelt did want to.

Just like Bush did going after Osama Ben Laden so he could make a war
against Saddam Hussein the one he really wanted.

.
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Old 03-18-2014, 06:53 PM
 
1,057 posts, read 862,863 times
Reputation: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
Blair had a choice and chose to brown nose Bush...
in the same fashion that the Brits got America involved in WWI.
We ride together, We die together, Bad Boys for life quote - YouTube
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:11 PM
 
1,057 posts, read 862,863 times
Reputation: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpus7 View Post
Yes the US did and President Roosevelt was behind it all and
over 2400 soldiers died because of it in one day, not counting the wounded.

That way the US would have to defend it's self and also be able to go after Hitler
which the American people did not want to do but President Roosevelt did want to.

Just like Bush did going after Osama Ben Laden so he could make a war
against Saddam Hussein the one he really wanted.

.
There was speculation that FDR provoked the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor. This would allow the US to get involved in the war, which is what he desperately wanted.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:38 PM
 
Location: On The Road Full Time RVing
2,341 posts, read 3,482,902 times
Reputation: 2230
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass View Post
There was speculation that FDR provoked the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor. This would allow the US to get involved in the war, which is what he desperately wanted.
Now you got it ... which most don't understand or see
and don't want to hear it ! ! ! ...

.
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:08 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,517,334 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpus7 View Post
Now you got it ... which most don't understand or see
and don't want to hear it ! ! ! ...

.
No he doesn't and neither do you. Please provide evidence to support your claim that FDR provoked, allowed or engineered the attack on Pearl Harbor.
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