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Weren't Koreans subjects of the Empire? I mean back in 2006 South Korea absolved its war criminals and stated that they were victims of Japanese imperialism:
I remember having this debate in high school, so I'd assume that most historians are aware that this has been an ongoing debate for many years.
Also, please note that I am not interested in taking sides. I'm simply making you aware of the fact that this isn't simply a case of conspiracy theorists promoting their believes on their blogs. This debate has gone on since the 40's.
It's absolutely been specualtion since the 40's, probably among some since December 8th 1941. However, none of this proves your original thesis which I questioned which was your affirmative statement that FDR provoked them in order to get into the war. The US was absolutely aware of the rising tensions and Japanese actions and responses. War with Japan was certainly seen as a possibility, but I strongly reject the implication that it was desired or provoked. The literature provided is as follows:
1. Stimson's Diary - I have read Stimson's diary and several articles on this particular entry. The discussion that day was centered around what would the US response be if Japan were to attack. The US had reason to believe that an attack was possible, but the use of specific times or "imminence" was more added for effect at the meeting. A complete reading would show that Stimson, like others, did not desire war with Japan.
2. Richardson - He loved the fleet and didn't think it should be at Pearl. From a military standpoint he was correct. From a geopolitical standpoint he was wrong. That he was proven correct militarily is not analogous with their being some more sinister reason for the fleet being at Pearl.
3. Stinnett - His book has been debunked by historians and academics and the simple truth is that he either outright lied by inventing his sources or claiming they said things that they did not say. It is basically a favorite among certain conspiracy theorists, but holds ZERO credibility among historians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass
Japan enabled him to make war with Germany.
The US was already well on a course to outright war with Germany which was always the war that FDR wanted us to be in. A war with Japan would do nothing but draw resources away from the European theater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass
By the time we got involved in Europe, we were mainly focused on liberating as many countries as we could before the Soviets gobbled up anymore for themselves. The soviets were obviously capable of beating the Nazis on their own.
True, to an extent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
wrong. Japan was already trying to surrender. The only condition they wanted was
to keep their Emperor. As much as my post deplored the over-reaching of Japanese
imperialism, the people of those cities did not deserve to be annihilated just to test
run a new weapon.
I will refer you to the following thread which contains a very lengthy and detailed explanation about exactly what was going on in Japan in the lead up to the bombings and their response afterward. I made the thread because I got tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over:
Hint: A portion of the Japanese government was sending out peace feelers. The majority still wanted to pursue war. What were acceptable conditions to the military hardliners were far broader then simply retaining the institution of the emperor.
wrong. Japan was already trying to surrender. The only condition they wanted was
to keep their Emperor. As much as my post deplored the over-reaching of Japanese
imperialism, the people of those cities did not deserve to be annihilated just to test
run a new weapon.
First question for you, no fair looking....but whom was Japan talking to about a "possible" surrender?
For a nation that you claim was trying to surrender....they were still torpedoing our ships (surely you know the story about the Indianapolis?) launching kamikaze attacks and so forth.
Again, a key point is that they were nuked, nuked again and even after that with additional nukes potentially falling at any time they still took days to surrender and if you read up on the topic the Soviet invasion (see above) decimating them weighed heavily in the decision.
it is fairly common knowledge that Japan tried to surrender conditionally,
keeping their Emperor and with no Allied occupation, but a surrender nonetheless.
it is fairly common knowledge that Japan tried to surrender conditionally,
keeping their Emperor and with no Allied occupation, but a surrender nonetheless.
And conditional surrender was unacceptable to the Allies. That had been made clear throughout the war, partly as a result of the ending of the First World War and Germany's resurgence to create the Second.
The thought was that Japan had started the war, forget all the "we tempted them" crap, they struck first, not only at Pearl Harbor but the Phillipines, Malaysia, Hong Kong in Dec. 1941. That warranted unconditional surrender since the war developed not necessarily to the advantage of the Empire.
Korea was a colonial possession of Japan from 1910 through 1945.
I am aware of that, it was more of a slightly sarcastic quip about the atrocities that the Koreans suffered from the Japanese in WWII which weren't quite as horrific as those borne by the Chinese, Vietnamese, Malays, and Indonesians. No Korean city was subjected to anything close to the Nanjing Massacre and no Koreans were subjected to the quasi genocidal massacres that the Chinese were subjected to on a routine basis. Koreans did suffer of course since many were victims of Unit 731 (although casualties are estimated to be less than 100), were conscripted in near slave labor, and were forced to serve as "Comfort Women" but Chinese victims massively outnumbered them even on a percentage basis. Many Koreans were also settlers in Manchuria and thus assisted Japan in its colonization of Manchuria. This isn't to say that Korea did not suffer under Japanese rule but to say the situation was far more complex than was the case for China, whose population suffered constantly from Japanese aggression which wasn't the case for Korea where many were willing collaborators such as this guy: Hong Sa-ik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
To clear matters up. Japan did not want a fight with the British Empire or the USA in Dec 1941 as they did not want to fight on two fronts and did not have the resources too take on such a fight - the were fighting the Chinese in China. The Japanese repeatedly turned down German requests to attack the UK. The Germans wanted the UK diverted as they knew sooner or later their arms, especially aircraft, build up was coming their way. The Japanese declared war on the USA and the UK, by pre-emptive attacks because they thought the USSR was about to be defeated. They knew they only had a six months window. The USSR kept a large army facing the Japanese in the Soviet Far East. The Japanese Kwangtung army was nearly a million strong facing Soviet forces. A Soviet defeat meant their northern border would be secure and troops released to fight in the south. They would meet up with the Germans. If the Japanese had waited a month they would not have attacked, as they would have saw the USSR counter at Moscow taking 30,000 German prisoners, meaning the Germans would not have subdued the USSR.
The attack was all based on an assumption that the USSR was to be defeated by Germany.
The Japanese were in a position they dreaded and did not want - facing the UK and USA all alone. It was a terrible misjudgement by Japan to attack the UK and USA at that point.
The thought was that Japan had started the war, forget all the "we tempted them" crap, they struck first, not only at Pearl Harbor but the Phillipines, Malaysia, Hong Kong in Dec. 1941. That warranted unconditional surrender since the war developed not necessarily to the advantage of the Empire.
To be pedantic, the Japanese stuck the British first. Their first setback was when the Chinese turned them back as they went to Hong Kong.
For a nation that you claim was trying to surrender....they were still torpedoing our ships (surely you know the story about the Indianapolis?) launching kamikaze attacks and so forth.
If Japan had moved into Malaysia/Singapore and not attacked the Philippines and Pearl Harbor at the time it did, the US would have focused entirely on Europe
The USA was not in a European war at the time. They pledged to build 50,000 planes per year in May 1940, with UK output on top. The most the USA made per year was a whopping 86,000 and the UK 25,000. Hitler knowing this, and that these planes were coming his way eventually, with or without US pilots, moved into the USSR to gain their natural resources to counter the coming air threat. As the German armies rolled into the USSR German production predominantly turned to aircraft. The Royal Navy blockade of Germany was so effective it starved Germany of food and vital resources. Germany had to feed some of the occupied countries. Italy threatened to stop all naval actions in 1941 unless Germany provided them with oil. Germany was running on empty in all resources. They attacked the USSR with no reserves and short of oil. They were considering demotorising as they were short of rubber for tyres. They moved into the USSR using early a million horses and used only three rail line which the Soviets sabotaged and destroyed rolling stock. The horses hindered the home production as there were few horses for local transport. Germany in the late 1930s was a dire agricultural nation like Romania, with 56% engaged in agriculture. Germany was no well oiled industrial powerhouse, just a mid-sized workshop economy.
Germany could only get vital resources from the east. Japan thought Germany would defeat the USSR, but misjudged Germany's progress, and underestimated the USSR, and declared war on the UK and USA fighting them all alone. Exactly what they did not want and never planned for.
We're gonna attack your shores and then head back home and wait for Invasion. What kind of stupid strategy was that.
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