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Old 03-19-2014, 07:58 PM
 
28,896 posts, read 54,011,888 times
Reputation: 46668

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Does it matter which side was winning or losing a conventional war? Whichever one was losing would go nuclear first before accepting defeat and once that happens everyone is a loser.
Pretty much.

Although if I were the Ukranians, I'd start funneling weapons into the irredentist regions forthwith. A nice little insurgency there would keep Putin from trying to go after the rest of the country.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:53 PM
 
105 posts, read 153,215 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Oh, good grief. I hate this kind of pietistic nonsense. It was a simple question and we were trying to answer it.
What's more, if you think this was a spontaneous democratic vote completely and utterly on the up and up, you are indulging in a naive fantasy. I mean, how did they even organize an election in such a short time? Did that even occur to you? Nope. It's basically the march into the Rhineland once again.
Point 1. I think we just disagree fundamentally. I do not believe in "hate" which you use so loosely, in "war" which you use so loosely, etc. What is your end goal? Maybe stating that would help me understand you better.
My end goal is to respect human life by respecting the experiences and culture of peoples whom I may not understand but respect as capable human beings.

Point 2. You use the lack of knowledge about their voting to be reason to not believe them. What is the solution, force people to live in a country they do not identify with? Somehow I do not think this would be an easy solution.

Point 3. Naive. Let's curb the name calling and focus on facts.

Point 4. I said I respect other people which means I believe them, and the burden of proof is on me to prove them wrong. You may not like that scenario, but this way, only the informed can discredit other people; not the sceptics nor the hateful
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:53 PM
 
1,392 posts, read 2,127,664 times
Reputation: 984
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
I'm not flag-waving. I'm pointing out some serious realities.

What's more, I think you fall into the trap of ascribing today's Russian army the same operational skills as the Red Army at the height of its powers. The Russian Army did indeed defeat Napoleon and Hitler. However, the problem is that both France and Nazi Germany had less manpower than the Russians.

Further, the operational skill of the Russian army at the opening of any conflict has been nothing short of awful. Just look at the Russians versus the French in the early stages of the Napoleonic Wars, the Russians versus the Japanese, the Russians at Tannenberg, and the Russians in the first several months of Barbarossa and you start to realize that the Russian Army learns its lessons only after suffering major defeats. Even then, while their leadership and fighting quality improves, the Russians still rely on overwhelming an enemy with numbers, a factor that they would decidedly not have.
The huge casualties from Operation Barbarossa was because that entire operation was a sneak attack from a so called ally. At least with Pearl Harbor, there was no indicator that Japan was a friendly country and the US somewhat knew that an attack would happen. If you are going to criticize Russia for its massive initial losses from Operation Barbarossa then you might as well criticize the US for its losses in Pearl Harbor. The end result is what matters anyways and in the end, the Russians won.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Bel Air, California
23,769 posts, read 28,915,352 times
Reputation: 37326
if there were to be such a war, the first thing to do is establish ground rules such as no kicking in the nutz or eye-gouging
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:03 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,899 posts, read 5,770,017 times
Reputation: 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
The problem with the Napoleon and Hitler parallels is that they fail to take into account that Russia had far more populace than either invader. However, in the highly unlikely event that the US and Russia began to exchange blows (AND it remained conventional), the United States would have the advantage in just about every category.

Currently, the United States has more than twice Russia's population: 318,000,000 to 145,000,000.

Total male population fit for service: 60,620,143 vs 34,765,736

GDP: $16.72 trillion vs $2.553 trillion

The United States has the ability to project power anywhere on the planet. The Russians do not.

The United States technical proficiency is far more advanced, too.

Despite some feckless political leadership, the United States has a experienced, battle-tested field leadership throughout its ranks from prolonged fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Russians, aside from a brief war against marginal opposition in Georgia, do not.
Due to the massive advantages which the U.S. has and which are listed above, the U.S. can probably win a conventional war with Russia if it has the willpower to do this. A nuclear war? No--in such a nuclear war, neither the U.S. nor Russia would win.
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:09 PM
 
1,661 posts, read 2,522,662 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Since when?

In terms of conventional capabilities, Russia is easily a match for the USA.

The Russians aren't going to fight on US soil so the scenario would be on European soil or in Russia. If you think they are no match, you've been watching too many movies.

You are confusing quality with quantity. The Germans found out quickly. It doesn't matter how good your tanks are, at some point you can't get as many of them as they can get of you. The Russians aren't the Iraqis you know.

The Russians don't run away like most of the combatants we've encountered recently nor are they backwards when it comes to air defenses and their ability to fight a war of attrition the likes of which we is the USA have never ever encountered.

This is pro-Russian but lets try to think this through before the flag waving overloads our mouths.
Joke post right?
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:47 PM
 
278 posts, read 276,404 times
Reputation: 238
Russia = Putin

USA = Obama


/Thread
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:17 PM
 
580 posts, read 448,254 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveYOU2 View Post
Russia = Putin

USA = Obama


/Thread
Keep it up...

This isn't the P&C forum...they actually expect reasoned discourse in this forum (and rightfully so).
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Iowa
3,318 posts, read 4,108,976 times
Reputation: 4611
This whole thing is just Khrushchev's Revenge as far as I'm concerned. The Crimea was part of Russia for a long time, they gave it to Ukraine but did so when Ukraine was part of Russia in all but name. If they wanted it back, Yeltsin should have made a grab for it when the USSR broke up. I'm kinda glad Putin made his play, it shows the world that it should be wary of Russia, just like the cold war days. Now maybe Ukraine might wake up and quit following big brother and look more to the EU and get it's house in order.

What I'm waiting to see, will Putin make a play for more than just the Crimea? I think Ukraine should deport the native Russian population to the Crimea, and westernize, or go the opposite direction and join the USSR oooops I mean Russian Federation if they want to go that route. With all those gas lines running thru Ukraine, it's going to be a constant source of tension for years to come. They probably will end up getting invaded anyway, and perhaps kicking off a greater conflict. Are they really capable of being a western democracy, do they really want that ? Can't really see where they have tried for that aim too hard in the last 20 years. I think they just want to play the EU, or the US for money that will go down the drain, in Ukraine.

If you have citizens cheering for an invader taking land from your country, those people are traitors and need to go. Ukraine is so much like Russia in the way they think and govern themselves (the problem) it's hard for me to think it would do any good to pour money and resources in there and expect to get any meaningful results. Ukraine needs to help itself before I become a believer. We don't have the money to help them or fight a war with Russia anyway, Putin ain't dumb.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:21 PM
 
1,161 posts, read 2,437,998 times
Reputation: 2613
The Russians didn't defeat Napoleon insomuch as the Russian weather defeated Napoleon. Napoleon, after all, did sack Moscow but his army couldn't survive the harsh Russian winters that closed off the supply routes back to Europe, leaving them stranded and isolated in hostile territories.

A land invasion of Russia would be incredibly difficult due to the sheer size of the country and the lack of a developed infrastructure - Russian highways are notoriously bad. But such a war wouldn't be fought on land terms. It'd be strictly via air and the bombing of major cities. The American air power and missiles would wipe out Russia's defense abilities and cripple the cities. It'd be difficult to see America going to war with Russia without the support of the rest of Europe and the NATO bases on the continent.

Anyway, war with Russia will never happen. The Russians certainly aren't hungry for it, neither are the Americans.
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