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Old 03-29-2014, 04:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
The Ulster Scots had a long history of being used for other's purposes. As they were mainly descendent from the lowland scots, they were the buffer with the English. As they were moved into Ulster and the surrounding area to 'dilute' the Irish Catholics, then later were evicted from the better areas in favor of large estates. Large numbers came to the American colonies, and poured into the border areas with Native populations where they again served as a 'buffer'.

They were tough people and had to be to survive. It's not accident that they were a driving force in the Revolution since they had so often been used and had the chance to change things. My family is heavily descendent from them, and I'm pretty sure the family temper is too.
Think James Webb mentioned that too, that they were always 'between a rock and a hard place'. Its as you say. The part they played in the Revolutionary War was away beyond what one would expect from a wee place like Ulster. A good book to read about this is 'Ulster Sails West'. Its a book that tells of their contribution to the war both in terms of military service and financing it.
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Old 03-29-2014, 05:30 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
The Ulster Scots had a long history of being used for other's purposes. As they were mainly descendent from the lowland scots, they were the buffer with the English. As they were moved into Ulster and the surrounding area to 'dilute' the Irish Catholics, then later were evicted from the better areas in favor of large estates. Large numbers came to the American colonies, and poured into the border areas with Native populations where they again served as a 'buffer'.

They were tough people and had to be to survive. It's not accident that they were a driving force in the Revolution since they had so often been used and had the chance to change things. My family is heavily descendent from them, and I'm pretty sure the family temper is too.
Temper, maybe? Perhaps its a low tolerance for nonsense. But toughness is surely a trait. As is idealism.
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Old 03-30-2014, 06:51 AM
 
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Another view of the Ulster-Scots

Reference has already been made to the Protestant emphasis on 'scripture alone'. As John Dunlop has written, ' The Word of God is central to Presbyterian thinking....Theology is tested against the Word of God and preaching is based upon the scriptures.....This careful attention to words, their meanings and their implications leads to documents been written and read carefully. Presbyterians do not live easily with studied ambiguity.' Later in the same chapter he comments, ' They are suspicious of a culture which gives a greater priority to maintaining relationships than to being absolutely honest. Many Ulster Protestants either come from such a background or have to some extent being influenced by it. Whether they are active church members or no longer attend any church, whether they believe the Bible to be the Word of God or not, most are probably still instinctively wary of any attempt to fudge or obscure the meaning or implications of the actual words used in any specific situation - be it in a private and personal, or in a public or political context.

The failure to appreciate this particular and possibly troublesome trait, this aversion to ambiguity or equivocation, has had a direct bearing on some of the difficulties that have bedevilled political progress in Ulster.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:01 AM
 
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I'm also very interested about the Scots-Irish and I especially wonder how many Americans have Scots-Irish ancestry nowadays. The author Jim Webb wrote in his book that about 27 million Americans are of Scots-Irish background. Seems like a lot of people answer Irish ancestry when in fact they're of Scots-Irish descent. So, the number of Irish ancestry should be lower than it is now (I'd say between 30-35 million) and the number of Scots-Irish should be higher, it was about 4 million in the last census but I'd say it's more around 35 million if we combine Scots-Irish and Scottish ancestry.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
The Ulster Scots had a long history of being used for other's purposes. As they were mainly descendent from the lowland scots, they were the buffer with the English. As they were moved into Ulster and the surrounding area to 'dilute' the Irish Catholics, then later were evicted from the better areas in favor of large estates. Large numbers came to the American colonies, and poured into the border areas with Native populations where they again served as a 'buffer'...
On this note: My mother's father's family were Presbyterians who emigrated from Tievenny townland, Ardstraw parish, Co.Tyrone in 1851. They came to Canada, where most of their descendants still live.

The details of their journey and arrival are known, though they were somewhat garbled for awhile. But the one and only direct quote from the family is a short scrap that is a tirade against the "exactions" of their landlord in Co. Tyrone. He was probably Lord Abercorn.

I wonder if they didn't go into the western parts of the lower thirteen colonies primarily to evade and avoid the Church of England. No small part of their dissatisfaction after the Plantation of Ulster was that they found that the government saddled them with many of the same legal disabilities and religious taxation that were so onerous to the Roman Catholic population. They had expected far better, and found themselves in large measure simply supplanting the Catholics, but still being kept in a legal position that was better than theirs but had some serious disabilities nevertheless.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Smash XY View Post
I'm also very interested about the Scots-Irish and I especially wonder how many Americans have Scots-Irish ancestry nowadays. The author Jim Webb wrote in his book that about 27 million Americans are of Scots-Irish background. Seems like a lot of people answer Irish ancestry when in fact they're of Scots-Irish descent. So, the number of Irish ancestry should be lower than it is now (I'd say between 30-35 million) and the number of Scots-Irish should be higher, it was about 4 million in the last census but I'd say it's more around 35 million if we combine Scots-Irish and Scottish ancestry.
'Ulster Sails West' is an excellent book telling of the Scotch-Irish/Ulster-Scots in early America. They were to the fore in the War of Independence and very much a part of the making of America.

I have just listened to a recording (which came to me via the net) of an American Presbyterian minister delivering a sermon in which he mentions the Scotch-Irish. He says that at a particular time there were three million people in America and that one million of them were Scotch-Irish. He added that this was because they tended to have big families. This is mentioned in the earlier video clip on this thread.

I think there was a move on to get 'Scotch-Irish' taken from the census forms, but there were protests and it has been retained.

When they landed in America they objected most strongly to being called Irish. One writer said this, ' It has, especially in America, been very much to the detriment of those of Ulster-Scottish blood. As a result of the protest on that occasion and of others later, the settlers from the province came to be known in America as ''the Scotch-Irish ''. Whilst this term did make a distinction between them and the, Celtic Irish, it has often been taken as a combination of the two races, part Irish, part Scottish. It is a great pity the term used had not been '' Ulster Scots '' as it surely would have been more accurate.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
On this note: My mother's father's family were Presbyterians who emigrated from Tievenny townland, Ardstraw parish, Co.Tyrone in 1851. They came to Canada, where most of their descendants still live.

The details of their journey and arrival are known, though they were somewhat garbled for awhile. But the one and only direct quote from the family is a short scrap that is a tirade against the "exactions" of their landlord in Co. Tyrone. He was probably Lord Abercorn.

I wonder if they didn't go into the western parts of the lower thirteen colonies primarily to evade and avoid the Church of England. No small part of their dissatisfaction after the Plantation of Ulster was that they found that the government saddled them with many of the same legal disabilities and religious taxation that were so onerous to the Roman Catholic population. They had expected far better, and found themselves in large measure simply supplanting the Catholics, but still being kept in a legal position that was better than theirs but had some serious disabilities nevertheless.
I think in some cases they were treated worse than the RC population were. I have read that when the rents were raised by the landlord that thy couldn't afford these and were thrown off the land. Their place was taken by some Roman Catholics who could afford to pay the rent. It was particularly galling to the Presbyterians because they had stood side by side with the English at the Siege, and were then treated with distain.

I have heard of Ardstraw. My father's side were from Sion Mills Co Tyrone and might have some connection to Woodrow Wilson.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash XY View Post
I'm also very interested about the Scots-Irish and I especially wonder how many Americans have Scots-Irish ancestry nowadays. The author Jim Webb wrote in his book that about 27 million Americans are of Scots-Irish background. Seems like a lot of people answer Irish ancestry when in fact they're of Scots-Irish descent. So, the number of Irish ancestry should be lower than it is now (I'd say between 30-35 million) and the number of Scots-Irish should be higher, it was about 4 million in the last census but I'd say it's more around 35 million if we combine Scots-Irish and Scottish ancestry.
My dad's family has always claimed my grandmother's dad was scots irish. Oddly, after she was born, her father just vanished one day and her mother knew why but never said. As he came from Ulster, I wonder if it was some sort of old business. No one ever figured out where he went.

Mom's family, one who is a great great great grandfather through one daughter and a great great gf through the youngest, has always been described as "Irish". But he came from Ulster and is described as an "Orangeman'. He left very quickly leaving wife and children behind and then remarried shortly after arrival. When I take out all the scots irish from those said to be Irish, there's little left. I think this is probably common.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
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Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Ulster? Do Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal count?
Yes, my namedad came from Donegal in 1747 and settled in Lancaster County. After the Revolutionary War, the family pioneered in Western Pennsylvania. I don't know about the Germans and Irish being insular, since I am descended from both Scots-Irish and Pennsylvania Deutsch (Blum) ancestors. Both sides fought in the Revolutionary War, and the Caldwell family gave one son to the Union in the Southern Rebellion.
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
On this note: My mother's father's family were Presbyterians who emigrated from Tievenny townland, Ardstraw parish, Co.Tyrone in 1851. They came to Canada, where most of their descendants still live.

The details of their journey and arrival are known, though they were somewhat garbled for awhile. But the one and only direct quote from the family is a short scrap that is a tirade against the "exactions" of their landlord in Co. Tyrone. He was probably Lord Abercorn.
Small world. My ancestors came from Donegal & Tyrone. One was the grandson of Rev Hamilton minister of Ardstraw Church of Ireland. Came to colonies in 1732. Lived in Pennsylvania, moved to Western VA avoiding Indian war parties. Moved to Upstate South Carolina in 1755 to avoid the Indian uprisings...again. Many were killed in a massacre in SC on Feb 1, 1760. My direct ancestor and his sister hid in the bamboo type canes for two days until a rescue party found them.

And here I am. and glad he survived. Am always taken with how tough and resilient these people were. hardworking survivors.
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