Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My dad's family has always claimed my grandmother's dad was scots irish. Oddly, after she was born, her father just vanished one day and her mother knew why but never said. As he came from Ulster, I wonder if it was some sort of old business. No one ever figured out where he went.
Mom's family, one who is a great great great grandfather through one daughter and a great great gf through the youngest, has always been described as "Irish". But he came from Ulster and is described as an "Orangeman'. He left very quickly leaving wife and children behind and then remarried shortly after arrival. When I take out all the scots irish from those said to be Irish, there's little left. I think this is probably common.
The RC Irish did arrive in large numbers in the mid 1800s and its possible that most Americans would think of them as one people. But in the early days it was the Ulster-Scots Presbyterians who were at the forefront in the push west and indeed the making of America. Fifteen Presidents of the USA were of Ulster stock, the first being Andrew Jackson who was also the nearest on. we had to being Ulster born. He was born eighteen months after his parents had left for America.
Re the numbers. This may give a picture. Paul Blanshard wrote this in the 1950s.
Today of the estimated 40 million people in the United States with ''Irish'' blood in their veins and estimated 56% can trace their roots back to the 18th century Ulster-Scots settlers.
Paul Blanshard one time head of New York's Department of Investigations and Accounts, educated at Michigan, Havard and Columbia, states, ''Almost all of th original 'Irish' immigrants who came to the 13 colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were from Ulster - a fact which Catholic historians are likely to overlook when they discuss the Irish contribution to America's beginnings - Irish Catholics in fact made almost no contribution to the political foundation of the American nation. In 1790 there were only about 25,000 Irish Catholics in the whole United States - less than seven-tenths of 1% of the American people and less than 5% of the Irish American population. The rest of the 555,000 'Irishmen' in the United States were chiefly Protestants of Presbyterian persuasion.
Small world. My ancestors came from Donegal & Tyrone. One was the grandson of Rev Hamilton minister of Ardstraw Church of Ireland. Came to colonies in 1732. Lived in Pennsylvania, moved to Western VA avoiding Indian war parties. Moved to Upstate South Carolina in 1755 to avoid the Indian uprisings...again. Many were killed in a massacre in SC on Feb 1, 1760. My direct ancestor and his sister hid in the bamboo type canes for two days until a rescue party found them.
And here I am. and glad he survived. Am always taken with how tough and resilient these people were. hardworking survivors.
No doubt about that theoldnorthstate. The movie 'Light In The Forest' is based on James McCullough's family.
LIFE FOR THE EARLY ULSTER-SCOTS SETTLERS IN AMERICA.
James McCullough left Belfast in 1745 and landed at Newcastle on the Delaware. He was a weaver by trade but then....' I began to plow corn June ye 23'. Then the first clouds began to gather: ' July ye 12 was put to flight by a fals Alarm from ye Ingens '. The Indian raiding parties were now coming across the Appalachians into the Cumberland Val...ley. At first their attacks were by night, then they became bolder and struck even in the middle of the long summer days.
Behind McCullough's terse entries lies a story of official blundering and cowardice and of terrible suffering endured by the people of the Cumberland Valley. The British commander General Braddock had been killed and the headlong flight of his troops left the frontier settlers without protection, and for the next two years McCullough records with monotonous regularity the murder and kidnapping of friends and neighbours: ' Robert Clogston his son and Betty Ramsey her son was killed.....Nov ye 9th John Wood and his wife and mother in law and John Archer's wife was killed and 4 children carried off....Alexander Miller killed and 2 of his children taken.' The diarist leaves to the imagination the gruesome details of these events.
McCullough's intelligence, humour and his stoical acceptance of the situation comes though his laconic prose. But then on 26 July 1756 came McCullough's personal tragedy: ' John and James McCologh was taken Captive by ye ingens. ' These were his two sons, aged eight and five. ( McCullough was inconsistent in the spelling of even his own name) The boys were snatched while playing in a ravine close to their home. Beside the date of the capture McCullough transcribed a quotation from the Book of Jeremiah: ' Weep not for the dead....but weep sore for him that goeth away, for he shall return no more, nor see his native country.'
In the case of the younger boy the words were prophetic; James disappeared completely. But, after years of agonizing search, the father found John at an Indian camp. The boy could no longer speak English and wept bitterly when he was taken from his Indian family. He had to be tied up for the journey home.
Yes, my namedad came from Donegal in 1747 and settled in Lancaster County. After the Revolutionary War, the family pioneered in Western Pennsylvania. I don't know about the Germans and Irish being insular, since I am descended from both Scots-Irish and Pennsylvania Deutsch (Blum) ancestors. Both sides fought in the Revolutionary War, and the Caldwell family gave one son to the Union in the Southern Rebellion.
Today of the estimated 40 million people in the United States with ''Irish'' blood in their veins and estimated 56% can trace their roots back to the 18th century Ulster-Scots settlers.
So it would remain less than 20 million Americans of Irish Catholic descent, I really doubt that because the immigration of Irish Catholics was really huge in the 19th and early 20th century. I still think they surpassed the Scots-Irish in number or it can be something really close like 30 million of Irish descent and 25-27 million of Ulster Scots descent.
It's true a good deal of Scots-Irish folks answer Irish ancestry in the census but there is also a large number (maybe the majority) who answer American ancestry. People who identify themselves of American ancestry are mostly found in the south and they assume to be predominantly of English and Scots-Irish/Scottish ancestry dating back to colonial era. That's why I think 56 % it's maybe to high.
So it would remain less than 20 million Americans of Irish Catholic descent, I really doubt that because the immigration of Irish Catholics was really huge in the 19th and early 20th century. I still think they surpassed the Scots-Irish in number or it can be something really close like 30 million of Irish descent and 25-27 million of Ulster Scots descent.
It's true a good deal of Scots-Irish folks answer Irish ancestry in the census but there is also a large number (maybe the majority) who answer American ancestry. People who identify themselves of American ancestry are mostly found in the south and they assume to be predominantly of English and Scots-Irish/Scottish ancestry dating back to colonial era. That's why I think 56 % it's maybe to high.
Aye maybe a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' when we talk of these things. I agree many would see themselves as Americans with no idea of their roots.
Paul Blanshard wrote this in the 1950s. I think he would have delved into it a bit before he produced his figures. But as I said it can be controversial, and folk will make their own mind up. The main gist is, that in early America the Ulster-Scots were there in large numbers and later many became American, but others would know of their roots. James Webb ( Born Fighting ) was just one who knew his background and wrote of the stories carried down from generation to generation of life in Ulster before they came to America.
Last edited by Ulsterman; 04-10-2014 at 07:47 AM..
.... Irish Catholics in fact made almost no contribution to the political foundation of the American nation. In 1790 there were only about 25,000 Irish Catholics in the whole United States - less than seven-tenths of 1% of the American people and less than 5% of the Irish American population. The rest of the 555,000 'Irishmen' in the United States were chiefly Protestants of Presbyterian persuasion.
Difficult to conjecture if R.C. Irish would have immigrated to the North American colonies - even if those colonies had been amenable to such immigration.
As it was the lower thirteen colonies were hard and fast hostile to Catholics, and the venerable American high school history myth of the "Catholic Maryland colony" isn't worth a pig's pizzle. The R.C. aspect there was quickly the victim of English religious politics, and finally was squelched by the outright opposition of Protestant inhabitants. No small part of the lower thirteen American colonies' hostility to the English government was focused on the tolerance extended to R.C.'s in Canada by the Quebec Act. Soon-to-be American patriot Paul Revere was producing anti-Catholic, anti-Quebec Act cartoons and patriots in the thirteen colonies were churning out anti-Catholic tracts....Google and you can find a lot of it easily. Not a climate a Catholic immigrants.
R.C. Irish males were able to immigrate to France, Austria and other R.C. continental countries and make a life in the military of these countries, and often in Irish units of foreign armies. And in the early years of this type of immigration there is some evidence that they sought their wives from back in Ireland. Given the anti-Catholicism in most of the North American colonies and the much closer proximity of receptive Catholic nations on the continent, it makes sense that they would have chosen the latter.
(The elaborate baroque church in my town which was heavily damaged in an earthquake was restored at the urging and under the agency of the Irish commander of the Portuguese army battalion stationed in the city.)
My impression is that the Scots-Irish expected far better than they got from the English plantation schemes, and came to feel - understandably - betrayed. Whereas, the Irish R.C.'s already knew where they stood from the coalescence of the Anglican church under the last Tudors. And they received a steady stream of Jesuit and Franciscan missionaries trained on the continent, which sustained their religion, if not their social aspirations.
Difficult to conjecture if R.C. Irish would have immigrated to the North American colonies - even if those colonies had been amenable to such immigration.
As it was the lower thirteen colonies were hard and fast hostile to Catholics, and the venerable American high school history myth of the "Catholic Maryland colony" isn't worth a pig's pizzle. The R.C. aspect there was quickly the victim of English religious politics, and finally was squelched by the outright opposition of Protestant inhabitants. No small part of the lower thirteen American colonies' hostility to the English government was focused on the tolerance extended to R.C.'s in Canada by the Quebec Act. Soon-to-be American patriot Paul Revere was producing anti-Catholic, anti-Quebec Act cartoons and patriots in the thirteen colonies were churning out anti-Catholic tracts....Google and you can find a lot of it easily. Not a climate a Catholic immigrants.
R.C. Irish males were able to immigrate to France, Austria and other R.C. continental countries and make a life in the military of these countries, and often in Irish units of foreign armies. And in the early years of this type of immigration there is some evidence that they sought their wives from back in Ireland. Given the anti-Catholicism in most of the North American colonies and the much closer proximity of receptive Catholic nations on the continent, it makes sense that they would have chosen the latter.
(The elaborate baroque church in my town which was heavily damaged in an earthquake was restored at the urging and under the agency of the Irish commander of the Portuguese army battalion stationed in the city.)
My impression is that the Scots-Irish expected far better than they got from the English plantation schemes, and came to feel - understandably - betrayed. Whereas, the Irish R.C.'s already knew where they stood from the coalescence of the Anglican church under the last Tudors. And they received a steady stream of Jesuit and Franciscan missionaries trained on the continent, which sustained their religion, if not their social aspirations.
The Scottish planters in Ulster did well. They were the mainstay of the plantation and got on well with the English, Welsh and Huguenots. They all stood together at the siege of Londonderry. It was afterwards when the Test Act was implemented during the reign of Anne which brought about Presbyterian resentment. It was then that they took off for America in large numbers.
These Presbyterians would still have had some idea of the 1641 massacres and would be wary of the RC Irish. An attitude which was probably carried with them to the New World.
Difficult to conjecture if R.C. Irish would have immigrated to the North American colonies - even if those colonies had been amenable to such immigration.
As it was the lower thirteen colonies were hard and fast hostile to Catholics, and the venerable American high school history myth of the "Catholic Maryland colony" isn't worth a pig's pizzle. The R.C. aspect there was quickly the victim of English religious politics, and finally was squelched by the outright opposition of Protestant inhabitants. No small part of the lower thirteen American colonies' hostility to the English government was focused on the tolerance extended to R.C.'s in Canada by the Quebec Act. Soon-to-be American patriot Paul Revere was producing anti-Catholic, anti-Quebec Act cartoons and patriots in the thirteen colonies were churning out anti-Catholic tracts....Google and you can find a lot of it easily. Not a climate a Catholic immigrants.
R.C. Irish males were able to immigrate to France, Austria and other R.C. continental countries and make a life in the military of these countries, and often in Irish units of foreign armies. And in the early years of this type of immigration there is some evidence that they sought their wives from back in Ireland. Given the anti-Catholicism in most of the North American colonies and the much closer proximity of receptive Catholic nations on the continent, it makes sense that they would have chosen the latter.
(The elaborate baroque church in my town which was heavily damaged in an earthquake was restored at the urging and under the agency of the Irish commander of the Portuguese army battalion stationed in the city.)
My impression is that the Scots-Irish expected far better than they got from the English plantation schemes, and came to feel - understandably - betrayed. Whereas, the Irish R.C.'s already knew where they stood from the coalescence of the Anglican church under the last Tudors. And they received a steady stream of Jesuit and Franciscan missionaries trained on the continent, which sustained their religion, if not their social aspirations.
Londendarry was established with a blend of English, Scots, and others protestents to gain a foothold in Ireland. Over several generations the lower classes began to call themselves Irish and culturlally adapted, but remained protestent.
But about the same time the American colonies were growing in population, and wealth was accumulating, those with Estates in Londonderry decided to consolidate their holdings. This included villages settled by the scots several generations before. But they didn't need them. Along with anyone else in the way, the now scots irish were force to leave. And with need for labor in the American colonies, great numbers went there either by choice or not.
Religion was a huge dividing line, much more than we see it today. It alone was reason to go to war and I can see why a catholic would find some other place to go.
When the famine sent millions of Irish to America, it included both, but starvation is an equal opportunity. That wasn't a factor in the earlier migrations.
My family lines have multiple roots in Ulster and all of the families even today are fervent protestents so I doubt that any of them would have welcomed a catholic to the family.
Londendarry was established with a blend of English, Scots, and others protestents to gain a foothold in Ireland. Over several generations the lower classes began to call themselves Irish and culturlally adapted, but remained protestent.
But about the same time the American colonies were growing in population, and wealth was accumulating, those with Estates in Londonderry decided to consolidate their holdings. This included villages settled by the scots several generations before. But they didn't need them. Along with anyone else in the way, the now scots irish were force to leave. And with need for labor in the American colonies, great numbers went there either by choice or not.
Religion was a huge dividing line, much more than we see it today. It alone was reason to go to war and I can see why a catholic would find some other place to go.
When the famine sent millions of Irish to America, it included both, but starvation is an equal opportunity. That wasn't a factor in the earlier migrations.
My family lines have multiple roots in Ulster and all of the families even today are fervent protestents so I doubt that any of them would have welcomed a catholic to the family.
The Ulster Scots in America were always at great pains to distinguish themselves from the so-called 'native Irish', in their religion and culture as in their former homeland they broadly ploughed a different furrow. Parker's History of Londonderry, New Hampshire from the 18th century relates..
''Although they came to this land from Ireland, where their ancestors had a century before planted themselves, the Scots-Irish settlers retained unmixed the national Scots character...nothing offended them more than to be called Irish ''
The Rev James McGregor wrote to Governor Shute of the New England colony shortly after his arrival from Ulster in 1718 with several hundred Presbyterians from the Bann valley around Coleraine, Ballymoney and Macosquin: ''We are surprised to hear ourselves termed Irish people when we so ventured all for the British crown and liberty. ''
The Rev Dr John McIntosh of Philadelphia and an Ulsterman made this statement '' From Derry to Down I have lived with them. Every town and hamlet from the Causeway to Carlingford is familiar to me. It has been said that the Scots settlers mingled freely with the Celt. The Scots mingled freely with the English purtians and with the refugee Huguenots; but so far as my search of state papers and old manuscripts, examination of old parish registers and years of personal talk with and study of Ulster folk disclosed - the Scots did not mingle to any appreciable extent with the so-called native Irish, ''To this very hour, in the remoter parts of Antrim and Down the country folk will tell you '' We're no Eerish bot Scoatch '' all their folklore all their tales, their traditions, their songs, their poetry, their heroes and heroines, and their home speech is of the oldest Scots lowland types and times.
my family is scottish and came to america in 1649, they enter at virginia
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.