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People, if this thread is to remain open, it must stay on topic. The OP did not inquire about Jesus. Off-topic posts have been deleted. Also, keep in mind that this is not the Religions forum. Thanks.
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Paul Johnson is someone who made his reputation by "reinterpreting" history. How accurately he did or did not do that may be questionable. The vast majority of his work had little to do with ancient history in the region where these people lived - if they actually lived at all. Ziusdra himself is in fact one of MANY mythical heroes associated with the many, many flood stories that exist. Equating him with Noah and then saying Noah actually existed is rather like equating Winnie the Poo with Yogi Bear as evidence for the existence of Winnie the Poo.
Some other heroes of flood myths:
Utnapishtim
Xisuthrus
Yima
Tumbainot
Manu
Thirumaaran (a personal favorite of mine because what he is revered for is saving as much of the contents of THE LIBRARY as he could carry while swimming)
Atrahasis
There are literally tens of thousands of these flood myths, because every group of people have experienced severe flooding at some time in their history. Because settlements sprout up wherever there is rich farmland; and rich farmland is most easily found in (wait for it) FLOOD PLAINS.
But all issues of historical existence aside - the people you are talking about couldn't be Jewish because, as we started with, Judaism is a religion that did not yet exist.
However they WERE Semitic. Modern Jewish people are still mostly Semitic. There are other people who are also considered Semitic - basically every group of people living in the same regions. So while they could not have been "Jewish", they were (presumably, if we pretend they really existed) the direct ancestors of the Jews. Ethnically the groups were the same in a direct line through history.
One must wonder why it bothers you to think they may have been "Jewish". And btw, Jesus was most definitely a Jew.
When I went to the Episcopal church as a kid, I remember the 'flood' being discussed. The minester noted that there are flood myths everywhere. He also said it made sense. If you look at the way the world was looked at in ancient times, then 'the world' could be the valley you lived in and a little past that you saw off in the distance. It *was* your 'world' and people didn't travel much beyond the known. And people lived around rivers and in valleys. The idea that a massive flood could flood your world is likely. That you'd know the 'signs' from having lived there all your life makes sense. People were very interconnected with nature then, moreso than now, but today we can look at where large floods happen and see where there were warnings that nobody caught. Someone very perceptive in that time might have.
If 'the flood' happened in the region of the Tigress and Euphrates, then it would make sense that people would watch the river as in the conjunction between the two flooding could easily be massive.
I'm not christan anymore, (wiccan) but I liked that explanation of interpreting a story within its time.
Jesus's ancestry on his mother's side, and step-father's side was Hebrew/Israelite.
He was raised among the lost tribes to the north in Galilee which was not in Judea.
All Biblical and historical texts refer to "Jews" as "Judeans", named for just one of the
12 Tribes of Israel, that of Judah. At the time, the tribes of Benjamin and Judah were
the ones in power in Judea, the other "lost 10" had already dispersed. Hundreds of years
after the fall of Jerusalem, Judaism as a religion was chosen to be the state religion by King Bulan
of Khazaria, a south Asian kingdom. This is why, for example, Benjamin Franklin called modern
Jews "asiatics". Ashkenazi and Khazarian "jews" such as the vast majority of those living in
Europe, "Israel", and America today are Sure, there are some blood-tied "jews" such as a portion
of the Sephardic who are ethnically ancient Israeli, but the ancient ethnic Israelis spread far and wide,
far away from Judea proper, some were Scythians who crossed the Caucasus
Mountain range into Europe. Jesus said in the last days there would be false "judeans"
living in the Holy Land, such as is occurring now. Concerning the photo above,
there is more traditional evidence to support photo A, than B, which A is based
upon tradition from early Christianity, whereas B is a recent computer-generated
trifle constructed by assumptive data based on false geneaological constructs.
You know, I've never before heard anyone accuse Jewish people of not really being Jewish.
The truth of the matter is that after the Jewish people were dispersed by the Romans, over time they intermarried with the local population wherever they settled. Thus there are small pockets of Asian appearing Jewish people and African appearing Jewish people. There are large swathes of European appearing Jewish people. This does not preclude modern Jews from being "really" Jewish.
However intermarriage POST-dispersal is beyond the scope of the current discussion.
IF we are to take the stance that Moses, Noah, and etc were real people;
And IF we assume that the old testament texts are roughly accurate in their genealogical assertions
And IF we accept the basic population groups and dispersal patterns worked out by historians for the regions at the time and up to roughly the birth of Christ as being accurate
THEN Moses, Noah etc were the direct ancestors of the Jewish people.
They were definitely Semitic, and the Jews post-Moses - that religion being more or less created BY Moses and his followers, according to the Old Testament - were also most definitely Semitic.
I'll accept that some of them may have been proto-Semitic if you go far enough back in time.
Again, I'm still not sure what the issue was for the OP to start with, but that's the answer. The people he is talking about, if they actually existed, would have been Semites and proto-Semites. They couldn't have been Jews until the time of Moses because the Jewish religion didn't exist until Moses came along and created it.
So, Moses was Semitic and also Jewish and all the people who didn't split off due to the schism he would have created at the time were also both Semitic and Jewish.
People, if this thread is to remain open, it must stay on topic. The OP did not inquire about Jesus. Off-topic posts have been deleted. Also, keep in mind that this is not the Religions forum. Thanks.
.
I admit I am under the impression that these men are historically real, except maybe Moses. But this topic is about ancient myths of some cultures, and I think that is a part of history.
I did not mean any religious context in this question. This is meant as more a history question. If these people were real what ethnicity did they come from? Were they babylonians, or Hittites, or Phoenician?
I admit I am under the impression that these men are historically real, except maybe Moses. But this topic is about ancient myths of some cultures, and I think that is a part of history.
I did not mean any religious context in this question. This is meant as more a history question. If these people were real what ethnicity did they come from? Were they babylonians, or Hittites, or Phoenician?
They were all Semitic. Hittites, Babylonians, Phoenicians, all Semitic. Those are national designations, or at least as close as they had to nations at the time - city states and loose associations of city states.
We're talking about what is know as the Fertile Crescent - a large swath of land where the Tigris and Euphrates flow. It was the center of civilization for the area and farming and city building spread from there outwards.
It's also responsible for a lot of desertification. It was a much more fertile and lush region before it got over-cultivated, over-forested, and over-run.
Paul Johnson is someone who made his reputation by "reinterpreting" history. How accurately he did or did not do that may be questionable. The vast majority of his work had little to do with ancient history in the region where these people lived - if they actually lived at all. Ziusdra himself is in fact one of MANY mythical heroes associated with the many, many flood stories that exist. Equating him with Noah and then saying Noah actually existed is rather like equating Winnie the Poo with Yogi Bear as evidence for the existence of Winnie the Poo.
Some other heroes of flood myths:
Utnapishtim
Xisuthrus
Yima
Tumbainot
Manu
Thirumaaran (a personal favorite of mine because what he is revered for is saving as much of the contents of THE LIBRARY as he could carry while swimming)
Atrahasis
There are literally tens of thousands of these flood myths, because every group of people have experienced severe flooding at some time in their history. Because settlements sprout up wherever there is rich farmland; and rich farmland is most easily found in (wait for it) FLOOD PLAINS.
But all issues of historical existence aside - the people you are talking about couldn't be Jewish because, as we started with, Judaism is a religion that did not yet exist.
However they WERE Semitic. Modern Jewish people are still mostly Semitic. There are other people who are also considered Semitic - basically every group of people living in the same regions. So while they could not have been "Jewish", they were (presumably, if we pretend they really existed) the direct ancestors of the Jews. Ethnically the groups were the same in a direct line through history.
One must wonder why it bothers you to think they may have been "Jewish". And btw, Jesus was most definitely a Jew.
Well said. If one believes that these individuals existed, they were Semites.
Abraham is the patriarch of the Jewish people. Genesis 5 17:20. He entered into a covenant with God, a spiritual circumcision that united God with the Jewish people, and separated them from the Gentiles.
His name was changed from "Abram" to "Abraham" which means father of many. Many Jewish people.
And no, I'm not Jewish; I'm a Lutheran.
The OP should know that "Jewish" is a proper noun, and as such; should be capitalized. I smell major antisemitism in this thread, and it reeks.
(I couldn't rep you, apparently I agree with you too frequently. Owe you one.)
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