Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-29-2014, 05:08 PM
 
Location: NW Indiana
44,256 posts, read 19,919,237 times
Reputation: 115001

Advertisements

People, if this thread is to remain open, it must stay on topic. The OP did not inquire about Jesus. Off-topic posts have been deleted. Also, keep in mind that this is not the Religions forum. Thanks.
.
__________________
My posts as a Moderator will always be in red.
Be sure to review Terms of Service: TOS And check this out: FAQ
Moderator of Canada (and sub-fora), Illinois (and sub-fora), Indiana (and sub-fora), Caregiving, Community Chat, Fashion & Beauty, Hair Care, Games/Trivia, History, Nature, Non-romantic Relationships, Psychology, Travel, Work & Employment, Writing.
___________________________
~ Life's a gift. Don't waste it. ~
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-29-2014, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,165,541 times
Reputation: 16936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojj View Post
Judaism is a religion.

Paul Johnson is someone who made his reputation by "reinterpreting" history. How accurately he did or did not do that may be questionable. The vast majority of his work had little to do with ancient history in the region where these people lived - if they actually lived at all. Ziusdra himself is in fact one of MANY mythical heroes associated with the many, many flood stories that exist. Equating him with Noah and then saying Noah actually existed is rather like equating Winnie the Poo with Yogi Bear as evidence for the existence of Winnie the Poo.

Some other heroes of flood myths:

Utnapishtim
Xisuthrus
Yima
Tumbainot
Manu
Thirumaaran (a personal favorite of mine because what he is revered for is saving as much of the contents of THE LIBRARY as he could carry while swimming)
Atrahasis

There are literally tens of thousands of these flood myths, because every group of people have experienced severe flooding at some time in their history. Because settlements sprout up wherever there is rich farmland; and rich farmland is most easily found in (wait for it) FLOOD PLAINS.

But all issues of historical existence aside - the people you are talking about couldn't be Jewish because, as we started with, Judaism is a religion that did not yet exist.

However they WERE Semitic. Modern Jewish people are still mostly Semitic. There are other people who are also considered Semitic - basically every group of people living in the same regions. So while they could not have been "Jewish", they were (presumably, if we pretend they really existed) the direct ancestors of the Jews. Ethnically the groups were the same in a direct line through history.

One must wonder why it bothers you to think they may have been "Jewish". And btw, Jesus was most definitely a Jew.
When I went to the Episcopal church as a kid, I remember the 'flood' being discussed. The minester noted that there are flood myths everywhere. He also said it made sense. If you look at the way the world was looked at in ancient times, then 'the world' could be the valley you lived in and a little past that you saw off in the distance. It *was* your 'world' and people didn't travel much beyond the known. And people lived around rivers and in valleys. The idea that a massive flood could flood your world is likely. That you'd know the 'signs' from having lived there all your life makes sense. People were very interconnected with nature then, moreso than now, but today we can look at where large floods happen and see where there were warnings that nobody caught. Someone very perceptive in that time might have.

If 'the flood' happened in the region of the Tigress and Euphrates, then it would make sense that people would watch the river as in the conjunction between the two flooding could easily be massive.

I'm not christan anymore, (wiccan) but I liked that explanation of interpreting a story within its time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 05:58 PM
 
508 posts, read 660,362 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
Jesus's ancestry on his mother's side, and step-father's side was Hebrew/Israelite.
He was raised among the lost tribes to the north in Galilee which was not in Judea.
All Biblical and historical texts refer to "Jews" as "Judeans", named for just one of the
12 Tribes of Israel, that of Judah. At the time, the tribes of Benjamin and Judah were
the ones in power in Judea, the other "lost 10" had already dispersed. Hundreds of years
after the fall of Jerusalem, Judaism as a religion was chosen to be the state religion by King Bulan
of Khazaria, a south Asian kingdom. This is why, for example, Benjamin Franklin called modern
Jews "asiatics". Ashkenazi and Khazarian "jews" such as the vast majority of those living in
Europe, "Israel", and America today are Sure, there are some blood-tied "jews" such as a portion
of the Sephardic who are ethnically ancient Israeli, but the ancient ethnic Israelis spread far and wide,
far away from Judea proper, some were Scythians who crossed the Caucasus
Mountain range into Europe. Jesus said in the last days there would be false "judeans"
living in the Holy Land, such as is occurring now. Concerning the photo above,
there is more traditional evidence to support photo A, than B, which A is based
upon tradition from early Christianity, whereas B is a recent computer-generated
trifle constructed by assumptive data based on false geneaological constructs.
You know, I've never before heard anyone accuse Jewish people of not really being Jewish.

The truth of the matter is that after the Jewish people were dispersed by the Romans, over time they intermarried with the local population wherever they settled. Thus there are small pockets of Asian appearing Jewish people and African appearing Jewish people. There are large swathes of European appearing Jewish people. This does not preclude modern Jews from being "really" Jewish.

However intermarriage POST-dispersal is beyond the scope of the current discussion.

IF we are to take the stance that Moses, Noah, and etc were real people;

And IF we assume that the old testament texts are roughly accurate in their genealogical assertions

And IF we accept the basic population groups and dispersal patterns worked out by historians for the regions at the time and up to roughly the birth of Christ as being accurate

THEN Moses, Noah etc were the direct ancestors of the Jewish people.

They were definitely Semitic, and the Jews post-Moses - that religion being more or less created BY Moses and his followers, according to the Old Testament - were also most definitely Semitic.

I'll accept that some of them may have been proto-Semitic if you go far enough back in time.

Again, I'm still not sure what the issue was for the OP to start with, but that's the answer. The people he is talking about, if they actually existed, would have been Semites and proto-Semites. They couldn't have been Jews until the time of Moses because the Jewish religion didn't exist until Moses came along and created it.

So, Moses was Semitic and also Jewish and all the people who didn't split off due to the schism he would have created at the time were also both Semitic and Jewish.

Everybody before Moses - not Jewish, but Semitic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 06:02 PM
 
17,877 posts, read 15,739,155 times
Reputation: 11650
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJSinger View Post
People, if this thread is to remain open, it must stay on topic. The OP did not inquire about Jesus. Off-topic posts have been deleted. Also, keep in mind that this is not the Religions forum. Thanks.
.
I admit I am under the impression that these men are historically real, except maybe Moses. But this topic is about ancient myths of some cultures, and I think that is a part of history.

I did not mean any religious context in this question. This is meant as more a history question. If these people were real what ethnicity did they come from? Were they babylonians, or Hittites, or Phoenician?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 06:15 PM
 
508 posts, read 660,362 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
I admit I am under the impression that these men are historically real, except maybe Moses. But this topic is about ancient myths of some cultures, and I think that is a part of history.

I did not mean any religious context in this question. This is meant as more a history question. If these people were real what ethnicity did they come from? Were they babylonians, or Hittites, or Phoenician?
They were all Semitic. Hittites, Babylonians, Phoenicians, all Semitic. Those are national designations, or at least as close as they had to nations at the time - city states and loose associations of city states.

We're talking about what is know as the Fertile Crescent - a large swath of land where the Tigris and Euphrates flow. It was the center of civilization for the area and farming and city building spread from there outwards.

http://www.rivervalleycivilizations....-euphrates.php

It's also responsible for a lot of desertification. It was a much more fertile and lush region before it got over-cultivated, over-forested, and over-run.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 11:25 PM
 
17,877 posts, read 15,739,155 times
Reputation: 11650
Semitic is a rather broad term though isnt it? Arent the bedouins also considered semitic? Back then, were the groups not broken up?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 11:46 PM
Status: "I'm turquoise happy!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,877 posts, read 32,152,257 times
Reputation: 67753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojj View Post
Judaism is a religion.

Paul Johnson is someone who made his reputation by "reinterpreting" history. How accurately he did or did not do that may be questionable. The vast majority of his work had little to do with ancient history in the region where these people lived - if they actually lived at all. Ziusdra himself is in fact one of MANY mythical heroes associated with the many, many flood stories that exist. Equating him with Noah and then saying Noah actually existed is rather like equating Winnie the Poo with Yogi Bear as evidence for the existence of Winnie the Poo.

Some other heroes of flood myths:

Utnapishtim
Xisuthrus
Yima
Tumbainot
Manu
Thirumaaran (a personal favorite of mine because what he is revered for is saving as much of the contents of THE LIBRARY as he could carry while swimming)
Atrahasis

There are literally tens of thousands of these flood myths, because every group of people have experienced severe flooding at some time in their history. Because settlements sprout up wherever there is rich farmland; and rich farmland is most easily found in (wait for it) FLOOD PLAINS.

But all issues of historical existence aside - the people you are talking about couldn't be Jewish because, as we started with, Judaism is a religion that did not yet exist.

However they WERE Semitic. Modern Jewish people are still mostly Semitic. There are other people who are also considered Semitic - basically every group of people living in the same regions. So while they could not have been "Jewish", they were (presumably, if we pretend they really existed) the direct ancestors of the Jews. Ethnically the groups were the same in a direct line through history.

One must wonder why it bothers you to think they may have been "Jewish". And btw, Jesus was most definitely a Jew.

Well said. If one believes that these individuals existed, they were Semites.

Abraham is the patriarch of the Jewish people. Genesis 5 17:20. He entered into a covenant with God, a spiritual circumcision that united God with the Jewish people, and separated them from the Gentiles.

His name was changed from "Abram" to "Abraham" which means father of many. Many Jewish people.

And no, I'm not Jewish; I'm a Lutheran.

The OP should know that "Jewish" is a proper noun, and as such; should be capitalized. I smell major antisemitism in this thread, and it reeks.

(I couldn't rep you, apparently I agree with you too frequently. Owe you one.)

Last edited by sheena12; 03-30-2014 at 12:03 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-29-2014, 11:49 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,290 posts, read 87,099,452 times
Reputation: 55549
mideastern--- claimed by jew and arab alike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2014, 12:05 AM
Status: "I'm turquoise happy!" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,877 posts, read 32,152,257 times
Reputation: 67753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
mideastern--- claimed by jew and arab alike.

Is there any reason why you choose not to capitalize "Jew" and "Arab"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2014, 12:42 AM
 
Location: NY
774 posts, read 902,265 times
Reputation: 582
Moses-Egyptian and Hebrew
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top