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Does anyone know if Britain and France ever formulated a list of their war aims during World War II in 1939-1940 (before the fall of France), similar to Germany's World War I Septemberprogramm (sp?)? If so, then what exactly were Britain's and France's war aims in 1939-1940 (in terms of territorial changes/territorial gains, the post-war peace, reparations, et cetera)?
They hoped Hitler attacked Soviet Union, but Hitler was more crafty.
Seriously? The Soviet troops were of very poor quality at the start of the war and were regularly routed by the Germans in the initial phase of the war. The Soviets won eventually because of sheer numbers and scorched earth policies, not the outstanding quality of their troops. They had deep manpower reserves and wore out the Germans. They were also able to out-produce the Germans in tanks and were aided by the harsh Russian winters. Many Germans simply froze to death.
The Germans were there many winters and never froze to death in each winter. The Soviets out-produced the Germans in just about everything: tanks, small arms, planes, etc.
Tooze page 380.
"In both campaigns [France & Barbarossa], the Germans gambled on achieving decisive success in the opening phases of the assault. Anything less spelled disaster".
If the belt broke the whole movement stopped. The Germans though they had formulated a version of Blitzkrieg in France that was a sure-fire success. They used this in the USSR, just scaling up forces. They did not have the intelligence to assess properly, that the reason for their success was allied incompetence not anything brilliant they did.
The Germans vastly underestimated the quality of design and make of Soviet weapons. The T34 took them by surprise and they knew they were fighting an army they had hopelessly underestimated in all aspects. The Germans did not take into account the British supplying the USSR - 40% of the tanks used at the vital battle of Moscow were British supplied. The USSR had more tanks than the rest of the world combined in 1940. They also underestimated the Soviets so much they decided to attack them with no reserves, all the German forces were involved in Barbarossa, lack of proper logistics to re-supply, short of steel, an industry that could not re-supply at the rate required, short of fuel for industry and the forces, etc, etc. The Germans did not envisage fighting in the Russian winter in 1942/1942 and did not have enough winter clothes and equipment designed for such low temperatures. It was not just the logistics of getting to the troops, they just did not have the equipment. The Germans thought the Soviets could field 360 divisions, they fielded over 600.
Soviet industry was large and had moved to the east. Much was in the east anyhow. This was working 24/7 to re-supply. The T34 tank by Dec 1941 was well established and available in numbers. The Germans first faced The T-34 in October 41, reducing a German division to a few tanks. The Soviet counter-attack in Dec 1941 was well supplied, and heavily with T34s. There was still 1,400 Soviet aircaft available in Dec 1941.
The Soviet's mistake was attacking on a broad front and not aiming the the weakest point and pushing them right back, nevertheless they mauled the Germans. By Dec 1941 the Germans were exhausted in fuel, men and equipment. They could do no more. In July 1941, many German armies were at the end of their effective supply lines. As Tooze said, most say the Germans failed to take Moscow, the reality was that they could not as they were on their last legs. The large Soviet air force was still attacking German supply lines as well exasperating the situation. The Germans foolishly thought most supplies could be taken along a three very long rail tracks, which were easily ripped up and bombed via the air. Thousands of German rail men worked to get lines partially operation.
Tooze: page 453. Halder wrote, Barbarossa needed speed and motorized transport for supply. No waiting for railways. The Germans used three rail lines and 740,000 horses.
Tooze: page 454. Three rail lines were used. The existing Soviet rail network was not even good enough to supply the German army if taken intact. It was also of a narrower gauge too. The retreating Soviets took most wagons with them and destroyed the rail infrastructure on retreating.
The Soviets had taken massive losses, but being so big they could absorb so many losses. The Soviets also had inflicted great losses on the Germans by Dec 1941. The only large power German conquered was France. This gave them a sense of superiority - their technique was now known, so doing it twice was unlikely.
They largely dropped the blitzkrieg of coordinated air and ground attacks.
Tooze: page 487.
In July, all three German Army groups had reached the limit of resupply and stopped. The Soviets had taken devastating losses but not defeated. The Soviets saw the halt of the German armies and the re-supply problem and launched 17 armies against them forcing the Germans to dig in and defend.
The UK and its army was still there with a massive industry working 24/7 on war production, a massive navy with its blockade inflicting great harm to Germany industry, which supplied the forces. Then the UK was massing a bomber air force larger than what the Germans could produce.
The UK & US can be forgiven in underestimating the Red Army, which they did, not so the Germans as they would have to assess this force in detail as they were to fight it, unlike the UK & US. Soviet industry was turning out the arms and to advanced designs. I don't want to go into what ifs, but if the T34 was in place in summer 1941 the Germans would never have such spectacular progress. Stalin knew what was being produced. They knew once the weaponry was in place, they could defeat the Germans who would be operating over 1000kms along a few supply lines.
Apart from Stalingrad, which the Germans and the Soviets had an obsession with, the Soviets became less reckless as the UK and USA were in the fight and arms, and some well advanced arms, were building up. The Germans would not win, and the Soviets knew that. Once a western second front was in place, it was clear the Germans would quickly crumble, and they did. On D-Day 1944, the Germans were still way inside the USSR. The end came quickly once hit from both sides. It can be argued that the Soviets should have pushed the Germans out of the USSR by 1943 or even 1942. However the Soviets knew in a war of attrition the Germans were doomed.
They hoped Hitler attacked Soviet Union, but Hitler was more crafty.
If they wanted Hitler to attack the Soviet Union before attacking France and the Low Countries, then all they needed to do was to avoid declaring war on Hitler.
If they wanted Hitler to attack the Soviet Union before attacking France and the Low Countries, then all they needed to do was to avoid declaring war on Hitler.
They declared war on Hitler because of military contract with Poland. But England and France didn't help Poland because they hoped that Hitler continued his invasion from Poland to Russia.
They declared war on Hitler because of military contract with Poland. But England and France didn't help Poland because they hoped that Hitler continued his invasion from Poland to Russia.
The UK and France declared war because of Poland. How serious do you want it? The RN was attacking German ships and blockading Germany from day one. There was even some air raids on Germany.
The UK and France declared war because of Poland. How serious do you want it? The RN was attacking German ships and blockading Germany from day one. There was even some air raids on Germany.
It was all the UK could do at the time. The UK declared war on Germany - you cannot get so serious. The French could have done a hell of a lot more having a massive army and a common border with Germany, but the French also declared war.
You could argue that France and the UK should have put troops in Poland and Romania pre 1939 - the two countries they gave the ultimatum to Germany over. That probably would have prompted Germany to invade earlier, so probably not a good ploy.
The logic of the UK and France was that if Germany invaded any of these two countries Germany would be at war with two large military powers and economies, in a war they would lose. That would be enough to deter anyone sane. But the insanity of Hitler was underestimated.
It was all the UK could do at the time. The UK declared war on Germany - you cannot get so serious. The French could have done a hell of a lot more having a massive army and a common border with Germany, but the French also declared war.
You could argue that France and the UK should have put troops in Poland and Romania pre 1939 - the two countries they gave the ultimatum to Germany over. That probably would have prompted Germany to invade earlier, so probably not a good ploy.
The logic of the UK and France was that if Germany invaded any of these two countries Germany would be at war with two large military powers and economies, in a war they would lose. That would be enough to deter anyone sane. But the insanity of Hitler was underestimated.
How did those things help Poland? When you declare war, but send no troops, that is the same thing as doing nothing to help them. So in essence, the French/British did nothing. They sat back and let the Poles fend for themselves.
If the French/British wanted to help, they could have invaded Germany from the west while the Germans were distracted in Poland. The Allies had about 5 million troops mobilized in France and the Germans only had maybe 2.5 million troops total. Most of them were bogged down in Poland. The Allies could have struck while the Germans had their pants down.
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