Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 04-20-2014, 11:14 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,950,999 times
Reputation: 15038

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by kantabriansea View Post
Nice apology for a genocide.
I' d like to make a comparision.
If Jean-Jacques Dessalines were to be hitler, then Jean Pierre Boyer would be Joseph Goebbels.
Maybe your next genocide apology speech could be about those two.

I like reading supertrendy cooleftist about the haitian genocide, never ever talk about the genocide, always trying to change the subject. All in all, those poor children and women were just white, true?
I know that for the new capitalism useful fools, those genocides are "healthy", so why don't you speak about them?
Genocide was committed by both sides so since you like Hitlerian analogies try this one. What took place in Haiti was more like the Jews going on a killing spree after the defeat of Nazi Germany. Despicable but more than understanding.

 
Old 04-20-2014, 12:49 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,296,514 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Genocide was committed by both sides so since you like Hitlerian analogies try this one. What took place in Haiti was more like the Jews going on a killing spree after the defeat of Nazi Germany. Despicable but more than understanding.
[Mod cut]

There are exactly ZERO parallels between Hitler/Goebbels and Dessalines/Boyer. Closer parallels to the Haitian experience would be the Anglo-Powhatan Wars (particularly the Second) or General Anthony Wayne's response to the Paoli Massacre. We can debate atrocities from the past to the end of time. The Haitians, Powhatans, and Continental Army did not commit massacres on a lark or just because it was "the thing to do". There were A LOT of precipitating factors that occurred over decades (if not centuries) INITIATED by the French, English, and by extension, British. The massacres orchestrated by Openchancanough, "Mad" Anthony Wayne, Dessalines, Nat Turner, etc. did not occur in isolation.

Perhaps if European Jews had the ability to respond to the Nazis in kind, two-thirds of their population would not have been exterminated. The black Haitians were well aware of the fate of the Tainos. Even the ridiculous Wikipedia entry on which this race-baiting thread is based, acknowledges that the number of whites in Cap Francais was grossly exaggerated and "whites" were not eradicated. It was a specific military exigency that targeted the French and non-French whites as well as French women who married blacks were spared. I'm suspecting what is rankling race-baiters on this forum is the condition for survival mandated by Dessalines was that white women had to intermarry with black men. I strongly suggest anyone truly interested in this topic actually check the primary sources. I highly recommend "The Black Jacobins" by C.L.R. James. I believe you can actually download the book offline in the form of a PDF.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 04-21-2014 at 07:17 PM..
 
Old 04-20-2014, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
9,282 posts, read 6,721,268 times
Reputation: 1531
Quote:
Originally Posted by kantabriansea View Post
Today the most loyal servants of the capitalism are the supercool trendy leftist aka useful idiots.
So are you suggesting that ranking of "freest economies" has something to do with the welfare of the common people of any nation? wow what would lenin say if he resurrected? he'd be ashamed of you.


And yes, they're "keeping" them, Botswana needs the white doctors and technicians, the same that the haitian needed them, that's why the only males spared from death were the doctors.

So talking about a genocide (because the victims were white) is "cherry-picking one event..." If you were to say the same, with the nazi regime when they killed jews, I think it could be considered a felony... but when the killers are non whites and the victims are europeans, it's even considered a nice politically correct speech.

Put those leftist in their place.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 05:41 PM
 
285 posts, read 747,787 times
Reputation: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
I made the mistake before, do not feed the kantabriansea troll! His rants are an incoherent mess. There are exactly ZERO parallels between Hitler/Goebbels and Dessalines/Boyer. Closer parallels to the Haitian experience would be the Anglo-Powhatan Wars (particularly the Second) or General Anthony Wayne's response to the Paoli Massacre. We can debate atrocities from the past to the end of time. The Haitians, Powhatans, and Continental Army did not commit massacres on a lark or just because it was "the thing to do". There were A LOT of precipitating factors that occurred over decades (if not centuries) INITIATED by the French, English, and by extension, British. The massacres orchestrated by Openchancanough, "Mad" Anthony Wayne, Dessalines, Nat Turner, etc. did not occur in isolation.

Perhaps if European Jews had the ability to respond to the Nazis in kind, two-thirds of their population would not have been exterminated. The black Haitians were well aware of the fate of the Tainos. Even the ridiculous Wikipedia entry on which this race-baiting thread is based, acknowledges that the number of whites in Cap Francais was grossly exaggerated and "whites" were not eradicated. It was a specific military exigency that targeted the French and non-French whites as well as French women who married blacks were spared. I'm suspecting what is rankling race-baiters on this forum is the condition for survival mandated by Dessalines was that white women had to intermarry with black men. I strongly suggest anyone truly interested in this topic actually check the primary sources. I highly recommend "The Black Jacobins" by C.L.R. James. I believe you can actually download the book offline in the form of a PDF.

A genocide is something that shouldn't be excused, whatever the supposed cause... revenge, preventive strike...

It is sad and disgusting to read that the genocide of the white french population in Haiti, was INITIATED by the French, because you're justifying the murder of thousands of innocent people and exonerating in some way their real perpertrators.

Most of the Tainos died from epidemic diseaases, the survivors intermarried with the spaniards, unlike the british who rarely intermarried. So when the french take control over the island there were not "pure" tainos and most of the " whites" had mixed spanish-tainos ancestry.
The same people killed by the genocide regime of Dessalines. So who killed what remained from tainos?


Please do not show as an example of mercy the fact that some women were not killed if they acepted to be "married" with a black guy, because it didn't work in the other way, white men were executed even if they chose to marry a black woman.
Not to forget that they didn't take pity on any children.
Obviously they didn't kill their british allies and some other minor groups that could be useful for them.


And I'd like to discourage the reading of that book, unless you have a lot of spare time.
IMHO it's just an apology of that genocide and whitewash of the figure of the genocide Toussaint L'Ouverture
written by an afrocaribean writer, obsessed with black empowerment, the wickedness of white men but who curiously chose to leave his black wife for an american white model.
Better await for the movie I don't know, but I'm sure that anyhow hollywood will make the evil whites responsibles for their own death, and the poor black hero was forced against his own will to kill them all. The NWO rules.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 07:08 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,296,514 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by kantabriansea View Post
A genocide is something that shouldn't be excused, whatever the supposed cause... revenge, preventive strike...

It is sad and disgusting to read that the genocide of the white french population in Haiti, was INITIATED by the French, because you're justifying the murder of thousands of innocent people and exonerating in some way their real perpertrators.

Most of the Tainos died from epidemic diseaases, the survivors intermarried with the spaniards, unlike the british who rarely intermarried. So when the french take control over the island there were not "pure" tainos and most of the " whites" had mixed spanish-tainos ancestry.
The same people killed by the genocide regime of Dessalines. So who killed what remained from tainos?


Please do not show as an example of mercy the fact that some women were not killed if they acepted to be "married" with a black guy, because it didn't work in the other way, white men were executed even if they chose to marry a black woman.
Not to forget that they didn't take pity on any children.
Obviously they didn't kill their british allies and some other minor groups that could be useful for them.


And I'd like to discourage the reading of that book, unless you have a lot of spare time.
IMHO it's just an apology of that genocide and whitewash of the figure of the genocide Toussaint L'Ouverture
written by an afrocaribean writer, obsessed with black empowerment, the wickedness of white men but who curiously chose to leave his black wife for an american white model.
Better await for the movie I don't know, but I'm sure that anyhow hollywood will make the evil whites responsibles for their own death, and the poor black hero was forced against his own will to kill them all. The NWO rules.
Spare time is actually a good thing. In your case it could be used to develop some (or any) sense of coherence and responses based on some peer-reviewed research rather than your own opinions. And you know what they say about opinions! Your posts are outright lies and fabrications. Endemic Taino diseases? How could smallpox be endemic to the Taino when it was clearly never seen in them until Spanish arrival? The French Creoles of Haiti were not mixed with Taino, which is why they were white. Taino ancestry lived on in the mixed ancestry peoples of San Domingue/Santo Domingo, not within the white French. The separate social history of the mixed-race "mulatto" class is extensively chronicled in any reputable publication.

The British were the allies of the black Haitian revolutionaries? I guess that made for an awkward meeting when the British arrived to kill them to make sure this idea of revolution and emancipation did not spread to their nearby colony of Jamaica. "Mercy" is your word. "Marriage" is also an interesting choice of words for white French male/black Haitian female liaisons. These "relationships" were the only interracial ones of their kind in Haiti at this time (black men did NOT intermarry with white women) and this dynamic only served to help further suppress the black slave population (you need to read up on San Domingue's "mulatto" class). For what reason would Dessalines spare a white slave master for "marrying" a slave? This is just your ridiculous delusion with no basis in historical fact or social dynamics in Haiti during this time. You have had men from the dominant group "married" to women of the subordinate group in every instance of imperialism.

I think your criticisms of James's personal life displays your ignorance and your underlying motivations (he didn't even meet his second wife until six years after becoming estranged from his first and married her 13 years after this initial separation without divorce; what does this have to do with the Haitian Revolution anyway?). C.L.R. James is a world-renowned author (of whom I'm confident you have read none of his works) who cites his sources; where are any of yours? [Mod cut.]

Last edited by PJSaturn; 04-21-2014 at 07:21 PM.. Reason: Off topic.
 
Old 04-21-2014, 05:47 PM
 
285 posts, read 747,787 times
Reputation: 277
[Mod cut.] I SAID E P I D E M I C not endemic, obviously imported diseases, that's one of the dangers of massive (yes, I love that word) immigrations.

We're talking about haiti, and when the French took the island from Spanish control, they didn't killed or oust the Spaniard population, I guess that they intermarried with many of them, and their sibling could pass for whites, despite having some taino ancestry... that's all what remained from tainos.
You should know that British and Spanish troops supported the revolution, because it caused damage to their common enemy, France (at that moment, a few years before or later, the alliances were different ). Haiti was one of the most valuables places for France and when they lost control over the island, the markets of France related with sugar collapsed and they had to sell Lousiana, recently bought from the Spanish.

I guess most of the white people murdered in Haitian genocide were not white slave masters, but small landowners, shopkeepers, artisans... children... people who had no power to force any kind of marriage against the will of a woman.
But as I said before They didn't spare those women for just "marrying" black men, because it didn't work in the other way, men were killed anyway. The only thing that horrible thing proved is that they liked white women.


Mod cut: Off topic.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 04-21-2014 at 07:25 PM..
 
Old 04-21-2014, 06:52 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,296,514 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by kantabriansea View Post
[Mod cut.] I SAID E P I D E M I C not endemic, obviously imported diseases, that's one of the dangers of massive (yes, I love that word) immigrations.

We're talking about haiti, and when the French took the island from Spanish control, they didn't killed or oust the Spaniard population, I guess that they intermarried with many of them, and their sibling could pass for whites, despite having some taino ancestry... that's all what remained from tainos.
You should know that British and Spanish troops supported the revolution, because it caused damage to their common enemy, France (at that moment, a few years before or later, the alliances were different ). Haiti was one of the most valuables places for France and when they lost control over the island, the markets of France related with sugar collapsed and they had to sell Lousiana, recently bought from the Spanish.

I guess most of the white people murdered in Haitian genocide were not white slave masters, but small landowners, shopkeepers, artisans... children... people who had no power to force any kind of marriage against the will of a woman.
But as I said before They didn't spare those women for just "marrying" black men, because it didn't work in the other way, men were killed anyway. The only thing that horrible thing proved is that they liked white women.


[Mod cut.]
The reason why you are saying "I guess" a lot in your posts is because you don't know the correct information, you are making assumptions, your assumptions are wrong, and you refuse to do basic research to even make yourself sound marginally sane. This thread is troll bait. Any minute research will tell you that the whites in Haiti you describe above (the petit-blancs) were as insidious perpetrators of the slave system as the slave masters themselves. Arguably more so as they also sought to suppress the rights of free mulattoes who were their chief socioeconomic competitors and a rung on the social caste system the petit-blancs sought to dispossess.

The historical record is clear (even in the garbage Wikipedia entry on which this thread is based) that the Haitians did not commit "white" genocide as that would have been the systematic targeting of all whites. They did not kill Poles and Germans who were white. There was no latent envy of white males married to black females as the Polish and German populations were exclusively male and married to black Haitian women themselves (yet were not killed). The French were targeted in the massacre because they were imperialists and the population the ex-slaves deemed responsible for making them slaves in the first place. All of these Haitians were well-founded as the United States placed an embargo on Haiti in 1806 and threatened re-colonization and re-enslavement if the Haitians did not pay France a crippling indemnity which they ultimately did.

And if you want to get technical, the smallpox outbreak was actually a pandemic as there essentially was no geographic constraint to its spread (you also would be better served how to use endemic vs. epidemic in the proper context). However, I have exhausted too much time in replying to an individual who has not intention on providing any information besides his/her own conjecture and is making spurious and unfounded claims against me. As is readily apparent, no one else wants to participate in this thread as you have made it toxic.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 04-21-2014 at 07:24 PM.. Reason: added link to supply sources
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top