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Old 04-19-2014, 08:41 AM
 
10,314 posts, read 5,494,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
If you can't figure that out......
You made the claim. The burden is on you to support that claim, and you have failed to do so. Care to try again?
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Old 04-19-2014, 09:05 AM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,020,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
You made the claim. The burden is on you to support that claim, and you have failed to do so. Care to try again?
You have failed to understand something so simple.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:33 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,325 posts, read 16,958,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Even if that were true...
it's still a far cry from "most effective gun of WW2"

The M1 rifle is probably tops...........
Without a doubt. Garand was credited with creating the best gun of the war. It was called "the greatest battle implement ever devised" by General Patton.
That semi auto could lay people down.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:49 AM
 
10,314 posts, read 5,494,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You have failed to understand something so simple.
Your continual refusal to support your claim only damages your already weak credibility.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,932 posts, read 11,656,829 times
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Sorry, it was the M1, followed perhaps by the BAR.
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Old 04-19-2014, 04:25 PM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Without a doubt. Garand was credited with creating the best gun of the war. It was called "the greatest battle implement ever devised" by General Patton.
That semi auto could lay people down.
Long rifles were found to be useless in most combat situations. These guns were expensive to produce, heavy and too long. The British made the Sten, the Sterling was progression of the Sten and the SA80 again another progression. The SA80 is the standard issue gun. Long rifles are for snipers, the Accuracy International. In WW2, smaller, lighter, quick to ready weapons for close combat were found to be more useful. The Soviets experience as well.

I recall taking to a British para when the SA-80 was issued and the FN withdrawn. Some paras did not like it as it was more flimsy than the familiar FN. But this para said you can bend it if you want to but in a battle situation you just pick up another. He objectively looked at it. He also liked the idea of it being light, smaller, quick to get ready and you carried more bullets as the bullets were smaller.
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,772,235 times
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Western Allies did not use long rifles rather short rifles. SMLE, M1 Garand, M1903 are correctly termed short rifles.

A short version of the M1 Garand was built. Known as the Tanker model due to the secondary nature of use being mechanized troops and their limited storage.

No disputing the smaller,lighter and CQB effective weapons being more useful in some theaters of WW2 where they were needed for those conditions but of course one could not foresee how infantry combat would occur so there was a mix of weapons. Otherwise, post-war armies would have been equipped wholesale with SMGs. Instead they developed better rifles and a host of supporting weapons for infantry use.

Last edited by Felix C; 04-19-2014 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:55 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,894,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
No disputing the smaller,lighter and CQB effective weapons being more useful in some theaters of WW2 where they were needed for those conditions but of course one could not foresee how infantry combat would occur so there was a mix of weapons. Otherwise, post-war armies would have been equipped wholesale with SMGs. Instead they developed better rifles and a host of supporting weapons for infantry use.
As one might say, spot on, not me but others...

If I were a paratrooper or commando or involved in a lot of house to house fighting a sub-machine gun would be my preference (a Thompson thank you very much) but once you left the confines of the village or town... I'd be damned if I'd want any underpowered, short sight radius firearm when I need a weapon that could accurately reach out and touch someone (and put them down) at 100 yards or more, not an uncommon occurrence in the european theatre.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:52 PM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,020,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
Western Allies did not use long rifles rather short rifles. SMLE, M1 Garand, M1903 are correctly termed short rifles.

A short version of the M1 Garand was built. Known as the Tanker model due to the secondary nature of use being mechanized troops and their limited storage.

No disputing the smaller,lighter and CQB effective weapons being more useful in some theaters of WW2 where they were needed for those conditions but of course one could not foresee how infantry combat would occur so there was a mix of weapons. Otherwise, post-war armies would have been equipped wholesale with SMGs. Instead they developed better rifles and a host of supporting weapons for infantry use.
The British have dropped long rifles, going for the SA-80 - after initial problems because of changes in the design, the SA-80 is now a superb gun. Where you need range, rate of fire, etc, SMGs, etc, are available. Most NATO forces have standardised on the Belgian MAG. Lee Enfield's, Garands, etc were proved obsolete in modern warfare in WW2. The Brits and Soviets realised that quite quickly. They tried to adapt long rifles with shorter barrels and the likes - carbines.

Infantry guns must be small, light and ammunition small and light enough entailing many more rounds. The SA-80 does all that. The Canadian C-7 is too long as is the M16 but the M4 is getting there. The Russian AK-74 is too long but there is a folding but version.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:44 AM
 
10,314 posts, read 5,494,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The British have dropped long rifles, going for the SA-80 - after initial problems because of changes in the design, the SA-80 is now a superb gun. Where you need range, rate of fire, etc, SMGs, etc, are available. Most NATO forces have standardised on the Belgian MAG. Lee Enfield's, Garands, etc were proved obsolete in modern warfare in WW2. The Brits and Soviets realised that quite quickly. They tried to adapt long rifles with shorter barrels and the likes - carbines.

Infantry guns must be small, light and ammunition small and light enough entailing many more rounds. The SA-80 does all that. The Canadian C-7 is too long as is the M16 but the M4 is getting there. The Russian AK-74 is too long but there is a folding but version.
Listening to a dis-armed Brit pontificating about small arms is pretty funny.

Tell us all about how the POS SA-80 is a superb gun. So superb, in fact, that other than the UK, it's use is limited to such military powerhouses as Jamaica and Bolivia.
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