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Old 04-20-2014, 08:05 PM
 
18,775 posts, read 27,204,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The AK47 could not hit a van at 50 foot on automatic. Go to 1 min 35 secs:

THAT guy? Ever since he became a weapons expert? He doesn't even know how to hold it.
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:59 AM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,023,177 times
Reputation: 2154
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
why don't guys going into Afcrapastan carry that other great WW2 designed weapon? You know the one that won the war for the Brits??? Maybe it's because sten guns suck!
You have no idea of war economics. The Sten did exactly what it was supposed to do, quickly and cheaply using as few resources as possible to win a war, with over 5 million made - US forces in Viet Nam used the Sten 25 years after WW2. A gun not supposed to be used after WW2. Like the AK47 the Sten could operate in a level of dirt other guns would not. The guys going into Afghanistan use the SA-80 a progression from the Sten.

Of all assault rifles in the world over half made are the AK-47. Why was it so successful? It was cheap and the AK-47 took a few of the design principles of the Sten in design - simplicity being paramount.

Last edited by John-UK; 04-21-2014 at 01:50 AM..
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:01 AM
 
42 posts, read 30,866 times
Reputation: 35
Obviously warfare and weaponry evolves and develops, but definitely a brilliant invention, if I may speak from the cold and unethical side of my personality. The one side of me is of course screaming killing is bad.
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:56 AM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,023,177 times
Reputation: 2154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
THAT guy? Ever since he became a weapons expert? He doesn't even know how to hold it.
The whole video about the gun.


Jeremy Clarkson - Inventions That Changed The World - The Gun - YouTube
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:02 AM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,023,177 times
Reputation: 2154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
THAT guy? Ever since he became a weapons expert? He doesn't even know how to hold it.
He also did this:

1970s American Cars Damning Review - Jeremy Clarkson's Motorworld - BBC - YouTube
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,674,920 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You have no idea of war economics. The Sten did exactly what it was supposed to do, quickly and cheaply using as few resources as possible to win a war, with over 5 million made - US forces in Viet Nam used the Sten 25 years after WW2. A gun not supposed to be used after WW2. Like the AK47 the Sten could operate in a level of dirt other guns would not. The guys going into Afghanistan use the SA-80 a progression from the Sten.

Of all assault rifles in the world over half made are the AK-47. Why was it so successful? It was cheap and the AK-47 took a few of the design principles of the Sten in design - simplicity being paramount.
I actually have a pretty good understanding of WW2 economics and the PROPPER place the Sten holds in the Allied arsenal and winning the war.....I have owned and or fired numerous WW2 FA weapons including the Sten, MP40, StG, PPSH41 and Thompson the Sten be far inferior to the others. As for your assertion that Kalashnikov used the Sten as a basis of design for AK. This is of course Historically incorrect and really quite laughable...
I defy you to provide any evidence that I am wrong...
AK-47 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The AK-47 is best described as a hybrid of previous rifle technology innovations: the trigger mechanism, double locking lugs and unlocking raceway of the M1 Garand/M1 carbine, the safety mechanism of the John Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle, and the gas system of the Sturmgewehr 44.

AK-47 - Kalashnikov AK-47
he pushed forward with an assault weapon design that drew inspiration from the StG44 and the American M1 Garand. Intended to be a reliable and rugged weapon, Kalashnikov's design (AK-1 & AK-2) sufficiently impressed the judges to advance to the second round.
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:46 AM
 
Location: London
4,717 posts, read 5,023,177 times
Reputation: 2154
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
I actually have a pretty good understanding of WW2 economics and the PROPPER place the Sten holds in the Allied arsenal and winning the war
...
...
...
As for your assertion that Kalashnikov used the Sten as a basis of design for AK. This is of course Historically incorrect and really quite laughable...
You still do not get it. You have little idea of of WW2 economics. Economies win wars. The Sten was an economic weapon that did exactly what it was supposed to so, and more. It was so simple a childrens toy company stamped them out. The design principle of economy of manufacture, ease of manufacture, as few parts as possible of the AK-47 all came from the Sten. Later in the war when German industry was pushed, they copied the Sten, as did the French. You still can't understand why. The US were the greatest at using economic design principle in WW2. The Sherman tank was the biggest example. This by far was not the best tank of WW2 - the Brits improved it calling it the Firefly. But when 50,000 of them are made using civilian car manufacturing lines, they make an impact. A general in the field would rather have 45 Sherman rather than one German Tiger.

I recall talking to one ex British para. He liked the Sterling, the successor of the Sten, as it was small and light. He said grenades were more important to him than a sub machine gun in modern infantry warfare. Both the Sten and Sterling were used expensively by many nations and are still used today. Not bad for cheap, economic throw-away designs not meant to last after a war.

I couldn't give a hoot how many guns you have used on a firing range.

BTW, Kalashnikov always denied he was influenced by the German StG44. He used mechanisms that were already tried and proven (some USA) and rolled them into one economical package.

Last edited by John-UK; 04-21-2014 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:39 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,903,269 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
I recall talking to one ex British para.
Move off the barstool and if you can't pick-up the respective weapons and fire them, at least pick up a decent book on firearms.
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,674,920 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You have no idea of war economics. The Sten did exactly what it was supposed to do, quickly and cheaply using as few resources as possible to win a war, with over 5 million made - US forces in Viet Nam used the Sten 25 years after WW2. A gun not supposed to be used after WW2. Like the AK47 the Sten could operate in a level of dirt other guns would not. The guys going into Afghanistan use the SA-80 a progression from the Sten.

Of all assault rifles in the world over half made are the AK-47. Why was it so successful? It was cheap and the AK-47 took a few of the design principles of the Sten in design - simplicity being paramount.
Without changing the subject too much. Of course economy's win wars that why the US won the war and not some junk brit sub gun. Our country/economy out produced every other player in that little brush up. With out programs like lend-lease the Germans would have starved the Brits out if not completely invaded. If you want to accurately discuss particular weapons that had more or less effect on the outcome of the war. That discussion must or should be broken down between main battle rifles, sub guns, etc. etc. If you wish to be historically accurate for sake of discussion I submit the PPSH line did more to win the war than any other sub gun produced. And the American M1 Garand led the way in the MBR category.......
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:22 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,477,989 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You still do not get it. You have little idea of of WW2 economics. Economies win wars. The Sten was an economic weapon that did exactly what it was supposed to so, and more. It was so simple a childrens toy company stamped them out. The design principle of economy of manufacture, ease of manufacture, as few parts as possible of the AK-47 all came from the Sten. Later in the war when German industry was pushed, they copied the Sten, as did the French. You still can't understand why. The US were the greatest at using economic design principle in WW2. The Sherman tank was the biggest example. This by far was not the best tank of WW2 - the Brits improved it calling it the Firefly. But when 50,000 of them are made using civilian car manufacturing lines, they make an impact. A general in the field would rather have 45 Sherman rather than one German Tiger.

I recall talking to one ex British para. He liked the Sterling, the successor of the Sten, as it was small and light. He said grenades were more important to him than a sub machine gun in modern infantry warfare. Both the Sten and Sterling were used expensively by many nations and are still used today. Not bad for cheap, economic throw-away designs not meant to last after a war.

I couldn't give a hoot how many guns you have used on a firing range.
You do know that the Sten itself was nothing more than a cheap copy of the Lanchester which itself was nothing more than a copy of the German MP18/28, right? You keep acting as if the Sten was some revolutionary design, it wasn't. Outside of using the cheapest possible materials to make it, there was nothing "new" about it. Any nation that drew any influence from the Sten often ended up with a much more robust weapon, for example the American M3 "grease gun". The Germans did copy the Sten in two different versions. One was the MP3008 of which fewer than 10,000 were made. This was a dirt cheap weapon to equip Volkssturm units. The other was the Gerat Potsdam which was created as a perfectly identical (down to the manufacturing stamps) copy for use by clandestine forces.

You are right that economics and logistics are what win wars. However, there is such a thing as being "too economic" or using that as your only lense. Slings are cheaper then Stens and ammunition is cheap and plentiful, yet no one equipped their armies with them in WW2. Economics is only one facet of the overall picture and effectiveness of a weapons system.

Quote:
BTW, Kalashnikov always denied he was influenced by the German StG44. He used mechanisms that were already tried and proven (some USA) and rolled them into one economical package.
From our thread on here when Kalashnikov passed away, quoting myself:

Quote:
It's a little murky, but there was certainly some influence. The Soviet Union started studying the StG44 (MP43/44) as soon as they got their hands on a few captured examples. Kalashnikov headed one of those groups. When a competition was held to choose a service weapon for the new 7.62x39mm round in 1944, Kalashnikov's entry was heavily influenced by the StG44's that he had been studying. His entry lost out to the rifle that became the SKS-45, which was a more traditional semi-automatic rifle.

After the war the Soviets took control of the main production facility of StG44's, along with all of its intact machinery, in Stuhl. With it they captured Hugo Schmeisser, the designer of the STG44, as well as piles of technical drawings and schematics. These, as well as freshly made examples, were sent back to the Soviet Union. Eventually Schmeisser with four other German small arm designers were sent to work in the Soviet Union at the Izmash facility. It just so happens that Kalashnikov was also based there.

During that time Kalashnikov was working on refining his design from the 7.62x39mm competition (which had been based on the StG44) to be entered into an assault rifle competition. Kalashnikov had access to the technical drawings of the StG44 that had been captured during this time. His heavily revised entry won the competition. He then proceeded to make dozens of prototypes and revisions that culminated in the AK-47. During the refining process he has admitted that he collaborated with and shared ideas with Schmeisser and the other German gun designers.

Now, in practical terms, while the StG44 and the AK47 look a lot alike, they have many internal differences. However, it is rather obvious that the design of the one influenced the design of the other as it was adapted to Soviet standards and incorprated Kalashnikov's own ideas. Kalashnikov himself finally openly stated in print in 2009 that he received influence from the StG44 and input on the AK47's eventual design from Schmeisser, the other Germans and his own Soviet team.
Kalashnikov openly admitted in the years before his death that he received "help" from the Germans when designing the AK-47. How much help he received is a matter of some debate...but let's be honest...the man 'invented' one rifle design and then nothing outside of re-chambered models and variants that used the same main design from 1947.
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