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Old 04-25-2014, 10:49 PM
 
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I am an avid reader of the ancients. I have read the first ten books of Livy, both of Caesar's works, all the annals and histories of Tacitus as well as his essays Germania and Agricola, Suetonius, Arrian, Josephus, Precopius, better than half of Plutarch's lives, most of the extant speeches of Cicero, Homer, the histories of Herodotus and Xenophon as well as various plays of Euripides, Aeschylus, and Sophocles. All of these were entertaining to one degree or another.

I am now attempted Thucydides and it is crushing the life out of me.

Don't get me wrong, there are some absolutely fascinating parts, especially the speeches. The funeral oration of Pericles is a compelling and tragic and considered a kind of antecedent of the Gettysburg Address. Passages recording how a common named Diodotus saved the life of thousands by out-arguing the demagogue Cleon actually really affected me.

But I got a heavily annotated version and it is just such a very long work, most of it very flat and dreary accounts of battles. I am a huge ancient world military fan, but they are so factually presented as to feel almost like a textbook. Thucydides never uses humor, rarely pursues an amusing anecdote, and has a flat, uninteresting writing style that presents events with little passion.

If anyone is interesting in classical authors, my advice is thus: Herodotus is the most engaging storyteller, Josephus is the master at capturing the tragedy and pathos of his events, and Thucydides and Livy are at the other end presenting things with admirable detail but very little flair.

Also, I am quite curious as to:

A) Do those of you who have also read all or some of these works agree with my assessment, and...

B) What you think of works by other ancient classical authors I have not yet tackled?
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Old 04-27-2014, 07:59 PM
 
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History is not story telling. THAT was, is, and will be done more than needed indeed. Read Homer or Greek legends, that's "historical" storytelling.
Why don't you go deeper than, and go civilizations, older than ones you engaged with? Mahabharata is quite story.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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I read many of the western ancients, (Penguin published translations), as well and also thought Thuycidides was driest of the lot. I took it to be a measure of the man and what he intended his work to be a lesson for those in the future contemplating war.

Tacitus is my favorite.

You did not mention Ammianus Marcellinus so recommend him as he details events leading to Adrianople.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:15 AM
 
4,449 posts, read 4,597,077 times
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Quote:
I am now attempted Thucydides and it is crushing the life out of me.
You know I'd figure if old Thucydides was around he'd bristle at the criticism...;-)....I'd say his style like other ancient historians has its roots in an 'oratory' style which perhaps doesn't come off well to some in our modern day when it gets translated. Homeric tradition was involved as well. When those ancient historians wrote down the words, they also spoke it as well to audiences who wojld listen intently. So for Cicero, if you were going to write history he believed you had to have a great eloquence of style to accompany those important words of history. The same applies as well to Herodotus who I'm sure who spoke at many a gathering. And as for Caesar, his Latin in his 'Commentaries' it's noted that his Latin was real good but 'unadorned. Read 'dry' today?

Quote:
Tacitus is my favorite
Yeah has to be in my mind one of the if not THE greatest ancient historian. His writing surely have the style and substance and he is writing about the period in Roman history which had great consequences for the future of Europe and really for the world. Not only did he live it but he had that great mind to analyze and put perspective on those events which happened centuries ago.

So for him, this was his world and work as he says, 'It seems to me a historian's foremost duty to ensure thatmerit is recorded and to confront evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity's denunciations'. Little does he know how his scribbling on the lives of Roman emperors, their entourages and the Senate would be relevant today in current governments operating today on how they rule and how they bring on loyalty and disloyalty. Nothing like Tacitus to bring out the motives and morals of a past society in great relief.
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,012,076 times
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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post

A) Do those of you who have also read all or some of these works agree with my assessment, and...
I'm not nearly as well read in the ancients as you, I've read portions of Caesar's books, portions of Tacitus and others, of your list, the only books I have read completely are the two Jewish histories by Josephus.

Josephus I really enjoyed, there is a certain tongue in cheek quality to his observations and I am left with the impression of someone who was enjoying his way through life because he realized he was just a tick smarter than those around him. What is especially enjoyable about Josephus is that he does not spare us his own selfish machinations, nor his humiliations. His saga of how he tricked the other members of the rebellion into suicide while he survived, his flattering of Vespasian to insure his own survival...Josephus was always putting one over on everyone else.

I also loved his story of his reception when the Romans sent him to try and negotiate with the defenders of Jerusalem. They dumped vats of animal crap on him.

What is most valuable about Josephus is his bringing to life the world of Palestine in the 1st Century...the world of Jesus. He provides the context and setting for the gospels which allows historians to examine the then in a much more complex light.

Conceited, deceitful, self interested, he was a Hellenistic observer of a less progressive society...so we get a cynic's view of matters. Josephus was entertaining, the opposite of Thucydides.
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:58 PM
 
28,896 posts, read 54,007,423 times
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Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
I am an avid reader of the ancients. I have read the first ten books of Livy, both of Caesar's works, all the annals and histories of Tacitus as well as his essays Germania and Agricola, Suetonius, Arrian, Josephus, Precopius, better than half of Plutarch's lives, most of the extant speeches of Cicero, Homer, the histories of Herodotus and Xenophon as well as various plays of Euripides, Aeschylus, and Sophocles. All of these were entertaining to one degree or another.

I am now attempted Thucydides and it is crushing the life out of me.

Don't get me wrong, there are some absolutely fascinating parts, especially the speeches. The funeral oration of Pericles is a compelling and tragic and considered a kind of antecedent of the Gettysburg Address. Passages recording how a common named Diodotus saved the life of thousands by out-arguing the demagogue Cleon actually really affected me.

But I got a heavily annotated version and it is just such a very long work, most of it very flat and dreary accounts of battles. I am a huge ancient world military fan, but they are so factually presented as to feel almost like a textbook. Thucydides never uses humor, rarely pursues an amusing anecdote, and has a flat, uninteresting writing style that presents events with little passion.

If anyone is interesting in classical authors, my advice is thus: Herodotus is the most engaging storyteller, Josephus is the master at capturing the tragedy and pathos of his events, and Thucydides and Livy are at the other end presenting things with admirable detail but very little flair.

Also, I am quite curious as to:

A) Do those of you who have also read all or some of these works agree with my assessment, and...

B) What you think of works by other ancient classical authors I have not yet tackled?
See, I liked Thucydides a great deal. He gave a very honest description of what happened, making it all the more fascinating. If there was ever a demonstration of the maxim "Conserve your enemies," the Peloponnesian Wars are the perfect example. Here, during the Peace of Nicias, Athens had backed Sparta into a very tough position even after the battle of Mantinea. Yet Alcibiades talks them into the Sicilian Expedition, to Athens' ultimate sorrow. As a result, Athens fell, a huge power vacuum was created in the eastern Mediterranean, here came the Macedonians, followed by the Romans. What would have happened had Athens managed to establish a large trading empire on a foundation of Greek science, philosophy, and political theory is a matter of interesting speculation.

I'm not sure how that isn't compelling reading.

Herodotus on the other hand was part gossip, part travelog, and part military history. Some of it is highly interesting, but some of it was about as informative as an article in People Magazine.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:11 PM
 
4,654 posts, read 4,095,012 times
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
I read many of the western ancients, (Penguin published translations), as well and also thought Thuycidides was driest of the lot. I took it to be a measure of the man and what he intended his work to be a lesson for those in the future contemplating war.

Tacitus is my favorite.

You did not mention Ammianus Marcellinus so recommend him as he details events leading to Adrianople.

Will do. I will look Marcellinus up.

I like Tactitus a lot myself. I just wish more of the annals survived.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:27 PM
 
4,654 posts, read 4,095,012 times
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Originally Posted by travric View Post
You know I'd figure if old Thucydides was around he'd bristle at the criticism...;-)....I'd say his style like other ancient historians has its roots in an 'oratory' style which perhaps doesn't come off well to some in our modern day when it gets translated. Homeric tradition was involved as well. When those ancient historians wrote down the words, they also spoke it as well to audiences who wojld listen intently. So for Cicero, if you were going to write history he believed you had to have a great eloquence of style to accompany those important words of history. The same applies as well to Herodotus who I'm sure who spoke at many a gathering. And as for Caesar, his Latin in his 'Commentaries' it's noted that his Latin was real good but 'unadorned. Read 'dry' today?


Someone has suggested to me, and it sounds about right, that the reason Tacitus is so tough is because he is writing for contemporary audiences and assumes that you understand the contexts of things. It is appropriate that you mention Caesar because the last one I struggle with a bit was THE CIVIL WAR. THE CONQUEST OF GAUL read a lot easier.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:31 PM
 
4,654 posts, read 4,095,012 times
Reputation: 9012
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I'm not nearly as well read in the ancients as you, I've read portions of Caesar's books, portions of Tacitus and others, of your list, the only books I have read completely are the two Jewish histories by Josephus.

Josephus I really enjoyed, there is a certain tongue in cheek quality to his observations and I am left with the impression of someone who was enjoying his way through life because he realized he was just a tick smarter than those around him. What is especially enjoyable about Josephus is that he does not spare us his own selfish machinations, nor his humiliations. His saga of how he tricked the other members of the rebellion into suicide while he survived, his flattering of Vespasian to insure his own survival...Josephus was always putting one over on everyone else.

I also loved his story of his reception when the Romans sent him to try and negotiate with the defenders of Jerusalem. They dumped vats of animal crap on him.

What is most valuable about Josephus is his bringing to life the world of Palestine in the 1st Century...the world of Jesus. He provides the context and setting for the gospels which allows historians to examine the then in a much more complex light.

Conceited, deceitful, self interested, he was a Hellenistic observer of a less progressive society...so we get a cynic's view of matters. Josephus was entertaining, the opposite of Thucydides.
THE JEWISH WAR is easily my favorite.

Josephus is the anti-Thucydides, and provides all kind of context and enriching anecdote. When you read stories about people being so hungry that they are eating out of sewers, it helps to paint a picture. Of course, I have never read anything more affecting than Masada.

The story about tricking his way out of suicide is a good one. I also like his speech when he tries to tell the Jewish people that they are picking the fight WAY too late and they should have done it years ago.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:35 PM
 
4,654 posts, read 4,095,012 times
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
See, I liked Thucydides a great deal. He gave a very honest description of what happened, making it all the more fascinating. If there was ever a demonstration of the maxim "Conserve your enemies," the Peloponnesian Wars are the perfect example. Here, during the Peace of Nicias, Athens had backed Sparta into a very tough position even after the battle of Mantinea. Yet Alcibiades talks them into the Sicilian Expedition, to Athens' ultimate sorrow. As a result, Athens fell, a huge power vacuum was created in the eastern Mediterranean, here came the Macedonians, followed by the Romans. What would have happened had Athens managed to establish a large trading empire on a foundation of Greek science, philosophy, and political theory is a matter of interesting speculation.

I'm not sure how that isn't compelling reading.

Herodotus on the other hand was part gossip, part travelog, and part military history. Some of it is highly interesting, but some of it was about as informative as an article in People Magazine.
Read though the thread and I think you will get the idea. As I said in my initial statement, some of it is very compelling. By he presents a very thorough picture in a very dry fashion, and the significance of a lot of events is not fully explained.
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