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Old 05-03-2014, 08:40 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,633 posts, read 14,855,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Got to be the Athenians or the Thebians.

Having read a lot of the ancient sources, the idea of rampant Roman sexuality seems to be something of a myth, at least in the Republican era. A lot of the idea of Romans running around committing homosexual and adulterous acts seems to come from the fact that different historical figures were constantly childishly accusing others of doing so. The great Cicero, for example, never made a speech in which he did not accuse his opponent of being gay.

Indeed, it seems that homosexuality was either illegal or strongly taboo.

There were, of course, exceptions. Caesar was probably bi-sexual, although I find even this a little suspect. A lot of this came because his own troops derided him as "the Queen of Bithynia" because he stayed there too long as a guest of the king when he should have been fighting.
I do not agree with your suppositions. From all my research, homosexuality was not illegal in either Republican Rome nor during the Roman Empire. What was considered shocking and scandalous was if a free Roman male citizen was the passive partner in a homosexual relationship. Roman society was a pretty macho culture and effeminancy was something Roman society was intolerant of. On the other hand if a Roman guy was the "top" (active partner, insertor) that was not viewed as shocking. Remember: at least two Roman emperors legally married other males, and Hadrian's long term affair with the beautiful Antinous hardly raised any eyebrows. I think Romans were more tolerant of bisexuality, and what they abhorred was passive homosexual behavior. Roman men were supposed to marry and produce children and heirs.

The comical songs about Julius Caesar having an affair with the King of Bithynia were quite explicit and ribald, so they say. Caesar's troops sung them as a sign of affection, they were not mocking him. Mark Antony was also said to have a bit of bisexuality as well. In any case, both men were much more interested in women ... and both fell under the spell of a certain Hellenistic queen ruling in Alexandria who was known in her day not so much for being a beauty, but for her charm, intellect, and personal charisma.
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Old 05-04-2014, 01:04 AM
 
4,648 posts, read 4,079,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
I do not agree with your suppositions. From all my research, homosexuality was not illegal in either Republican Rome nor during the Roman Empire. What was considered shocking and scandalous was if a free Roman male citizen was the passive partner in a homosexual relationship. Roman society was a pretty macho culture and effeminancy was something Roman society was intolerant of. On the other hand if a Roman guy was the "top" (active partner, insertor) that was not viewed as shocking. Remember: at least two Roman emperors legally married other males, and Hadrian's long term affair with the beautiful Antinous hardly raised any eyebrows. I think Romans were more tolerant of bisexuality, and what they abhorred was passive homosexual behavior. Roman men were supposed to marry and produce children and heirs.

The comical songs about Julius Caesar having an affair with the King of Bithynia were quite explicit and ribald, so they say. Caesar's troops sung them as a sign of affection, they were not mocking him. Mark Antony was also said to have a bit of bisexuality as well. In any case, both men were much more interested in women ... and both fell under the spell of a certain Hellenistic queen ruling in Alexandria who was known in her day not so much for being a beauty, but for her charm, intellect, and personal charisma.

No offense friend, but I can see you are listening to modern revisionism and have not read the ancient sources.

Like I said, Cicero enounced both Clodius and Catalina for homosexuality...he never made any mention of whether they were active or passive, and the fact that he specifically references their behavior with boys would indicate they were active.

Tacitus refers to Empereor Galba as preferring sex "the unnatural way." He makes no mention of it entailing a passive role.

Emperor Tiberius wrote Agrippina a letter accusing her son of homosexuality. No mention made of being a passive partner in homosexuality, just that homosexuality was wrong.

Speaking of Tiberius, he himself was ironically accused by Suetonius of keeping young boys for sex. He was almost certainly the active partner and his behavior was considered revolting.

Nero "married" and man that looked like the wife he murdered, and it did not go over well at all.

You are just plain incorrect a that Casear's troops sand them as a sign of "affection."


And on, and on, and on. The active/passive thing seems to be a modern invention, and if you do not agree, I ask that you source it to an ancient author.
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:12 AM
 
91 posts, read 195,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
No offense friend, but I can see you are listening to modern revisionism and have not read the ancient sources.

Like I said, Cicero enounced both Clodius and Catalina for homosexuality...he never made any mention of whether they were active or passive, and the fact that he specifically references their behavior with boys would indicate they were active.

Tacitus refers to Empereor Galba as preferring sex "the unnatural way." He makes no mention of it entailing a passive role.

Emperor Tiberius wrote Agrippina a letter accusing her son of homosexuality. No mention made of being a passive partner in homosexuality, just that homosexuality was wrong.

Speaking of Tiberius, he himself was ironically accused by Suetonius of keeping young boys for sex. He was almost certainly the active partner and his behavior was considered revolting.

Nero "married" and man that looked like the wife he murdered, and it did not go over well at all.

You are just plain incorrect a that Casear's troops sand them as a sign of "affection."


And on, and on, and on. The active/passive thing seems to be a modern invention, and if you do not agree, I ask that you source it to an ancient author.
And what about that crazy bastard Nero. You know...the one who brought a young boy from a street and made him his queen. Is that also mere scandal or does it have any validity. Because this pertains more to Nero's character and crazy ways than to the topic.

Where can I read legitimate ancient sources. Any book recommendation?
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:04 PM
 
4,648 posts, read 4,079,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi851 View Post
And what about that crazy bastard Nero. You know...the one who brought a young boy from a street and made him his queen. Is that also mere scandal or does it have any validity. Because this pertains more to Nero's character and crazy ways than to the topic.

Where can I read legitimate ancient sources. Any book recommendation?
Not sure I fully get your point...are you agreeing or disagreeing?

As for the sources....I named quite a few of them. Tacitus, Suetonius, Cicero, Caesar, Livy, etc.
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Old 05-04-2014, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,462,274 times
Reputation: 7472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
I do not agree with your suppositions. From all my research, homosexuality was not illegal in either Republican Rome nor during the Roman Empire. What was considered shocking and scandalous was if a free Roman male citizen was the passive partner in a homosexual relationship. Roman society was a pretty macho culture and effeminancy was something Roman society was intolerant of. On the other hand if a Roman guy was the "top" (active partner, insertor) that was not viewed as shocking. Remember: at least two Roman emperors legally married other males, and Hadrian's long term affair with the beautiful Antinous hardly raised any eyebrows. I think Romans were more tolerant of bisexuality, and what they abhorred was passive homosexual behavior. Roman men were supposed to marry and produce children and heirs.

The comical songs about Julius Caesar having an affair with the King of Bithynia were quite explicit and ribald, so they say. Caesar's troops sung them as a sign of affection, they were not mocking him. Mark Antony was also said to have a bit of bisexuality as well. In any case, both men were much more interested in women ... and both fell under the spell of a certain Hellenistic queen ruling in Alexandria who was known in her day not so much for being a beauty, but for her charm, intellect, and personal charisma.
Male sexuality in ancient Rome was quite free and unrestricted. Female sexuality, however, was a different story. Rome accepted male bisexuality and tolerated male homosexuality but female bisexuality and lesbianism were strictly forbidden. Lesbianism was punishable by death (although women who had sex with their female slaves probably didn't have to worry about anything). Virginity of unmaided women was closely guarded (like in most societies)
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Old 05-04-2014, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,462,274 times
Reputation: 7472
We don't have as many Aztec records as we have Greek and Roman records but it appears that the Aztecs' attitude towards male bisexuality and homosexuality was similar to that of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
38,859 posts, read 25,364,478 times
Reputation: 24780
Default Which civilization was the horniest?

All of 'em.

It's a pretty universal urge.

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