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Old 11-02-2014, 02:46 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,607 posts, read 15,553,885 times
Reputation: 10839

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Okay, but the specifics of the forming of West Virginia is another story. The issue before us was whether or not the Lincoln administration was concerned about southern loyalists. It was.
Oh, I absolutely agree that it was. I just wanted to clarify that the formation of WV wasn't just about loyalists. I think it is clear that the preservation of the union was job #1 for ole Abe.
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Peterborough, England
472 posts, read 922,811 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Oh, I absolutely agree that it was. I just wanted to clarify that the formation of WV wasn't just about loyalists. I think it is clear that the preservation of the union was job #1 for ole Abe.
Indeed it was - and he succeeded.

So unless it is claimed that someone else could have achieved the same result at less cost, I don't see how his greatness can be denied.
 
Old 11-13-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: No
467 posts, read 350,116 times
Reputation: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass View Post
Like most Americans students, I was taught that Lincoln was one of the best presidents we’ve had in our relatively short history as an independent nation. Slavery, after all, was ended under his administration.

Lately, however, I’ve been thinking about this perceived mythical greatness that has been bestowed upon Mr. Lincoln. Can we really consider him to be a great president if over 600k people died during the Civil War? Granted, the United States and the rest ofthe world would probably look totally different today had the south been allowed to secede, but surely slavery would have ultimately died of natural causes shortly after the south gained independence. I imagine the North and the rest of the world would have probably imposed tough economic sanctions on the south until the slaves were free.

So what are your thoughts? Am I wrong for questioning the consensus #1 president?
No. And what's this "consensus" business? Maybe #1 worst, with FDR and maybe Woodrow Wilson trailing.

P.S. Wasn't WV the "state" that thought that secession was wrong, and demonstrated it by seceding from VA?

Last edited by Call; 11-13-2014 at 12:58 PM.. Reason: P.S.
 
Old 11-14-2014, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Peterborough, England
472 posts, read 922,811 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass View Post
Lately, however, I’ve been thinking about this perceived mythical greatness that has been bestowed upon Mr. Lincoln. Can we really consider him to be a great president if over 600k people died during the Civil War?

Have you any reason to think that the War would have cost fewer lives had it taken place under another POTUS?
 
Old 11-18-2014, 03:55 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,607 posts, read 15,553,885 times
Reputation: 10839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
No. And what's this "consensus" business? Maybe #1 worst, with FDR and maybe Woodrow Wilson trailing.

P.S. Wasn't WV the "state" that thought that secession was wrong, and demonstrated it by seceding from VA?
That's not at all true about WV. Look further up in this thread. I posted a link to a web site with all kinds of truth about the formation of WV. It's not what you learned in history class.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Peterborough, England
472 posts, read 922,811 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
Wasn't WV the "state" that thought that secession was wrong, and demonstrated it by seceding from VA?
It was the region forced to choose between staying part of Virginia or staying part of the US - and opted for the US.
 
Old 11-19-2014, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Bel Air, California
23,769 posts, read 28,911,130 times
Reputation: 37326
Quote:
Originally Posted by -thomass View Post
Like most Americans students, I was taught that Lincoln was one of the best presidents we’ve had in our relatively short history as an independent nation. Slavery, after all, was ended under his administration.

Lately, however, I’ve been thinking about this perceived mythical greatness that has been bestowed upon Mr. Lincoln. Can we really consider him to be a great president if over 600k people died during the Civil War? Granted, the United States and the rest ofthe world would probably look totally different today had the south been allowed to secede, but surely slavery would have ultimately died of natural causes shortly after the south gained independence. I imagine the North and the rest of the world would have probably imposed tough economic sanctions on the south until the slaves were free.

So what are your thoughts? Am I wrong for questioning the consensus #1 president?
I always wondered who would win in a fight between Lincoln and George Washington.
 
Old 11-21-2014, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,623 posts, read 13,873,504 times
Reputation: 5883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
No. And what's this "consensus" business? Maybe #1 worst, with FDR and maybe Woodrow Wilson trailing.

P.S. Wasn't WV the "state" that thought that secession was wrong, and demonstrated it by seceding from VA?

Hey Thomas DiLorenzo, is that you? lol. Yeah FDR #2 worst, Lincoln worst. I shudder to think of the list of your great presidents. Go read a history book, or at least a few.
 
Old 11-21-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
11,110 posts, read 9,753,619 times
Reputation: 40161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
No. And what's this "consensus" business? Maybe #1 worst, with FDR and maybe Woodrow Wilson trailing.
I smell a Glenn Beck University 'graduate'.

Quote:
P.S. Wasn't WV the "state" that thought that secession was wrong, and demonstrated it by seceding from VA?
Forgive me for stating the glaringly obvious, but the political impetus behind West Virginia thought that secession from the United States was unconstitutional.

Why on Earth you think a group of loyal to the Constitution of the United States would consider it wrong to disassociate themselves from a state traitorous to the Union by affirming their loyalty to the United States is beyond me - because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
 
Old 11-21-2014, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
10,379 posts, read 10,863,025 times
Reputation: 18712
Lincoln is now my number 2, Obama beats them all. There was no law banning a state from leaving the Union, so "preserving the Union", was a made up reason for the war. So 600,000 men killed over a needless war, and half the country in flames. There were other options for eventually ending slavery legally without a war. Also, you may not know, Lincoln became a dictator during the war. He deported a congressman, put something like 5000 opponents of the war in prison, shut down newspapers. Not exactly a respecter of the Bill of Rights.
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