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Old 05-28-2014, 12:48 PM
 
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And the German reich, with the US not participating in WW2, successfully developed atomic weaponry

What would your prediction be of life in the US today?

Would the German reich have succeeded in world domination?

With a US armed with guns and a Nazi regime that threatened US to abide by German orders or else face atomic bombs on all US cities, let's just say this scenario surfaced....and a Soviet Russia that was forced to surrender after 5 atomic bombs were dropped and Moscow lay in shambles

I think the answer is chilling. Soviet surrender and Adolf would have looked to Britain and said "now is your chance at peace. We can't nuke you without damaging our own empire mainland territory at the same time so we have decided to forgive and forget...if so you British accept our offer. You, in turn, will then need to join us and your then lives will prosper under the reich leadership. Or else, so you make the unfortunate choice to remain stubborn, more of yours will die and your friends over in America will pay the ultimate price. There is no deadline to when you can switch sides. Your fate will be naval bombings till extinction, however, if stubborn leftism is the choice you make in your hands and the hands of your leftist leaders."

Last edited by EricS39; 05-28-2014 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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Your scenario is based on a lot of ifs. From everything that I've read about Germany and its focus on atomic weaponry, I'd say that Germany wasn't very interested in building an atomic bomb. At least not as interested as it would need to be to bring Russia to its knees as your scenario indicates.

Also, you're assuming that if Germany did have atomic bombs at its disposal that they'd be able to somehow threaten the U.S. with total annihilation. The problem is that Germany would have a very hard time effectively delivering an atomic bomb to the U.S. Whereas the U.S. was able to fly from the Mariana Islands [which was still a 6 hr flight], where would the Germans have to fly from? North Tinian was about 1500 miles away from Hiroshima and it still took about six hours to fly that distance in the 1940's. Berlin to New York is almost 4000 miles. I'm willing to bet that in the 1940's Germany wouldn't have been able to make that flight to deliver enough bombs [if any] to force the U.S.'s unconditional surrender.
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:44 PM
Status: "positive" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: London
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Too many unrealistic what ifs.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,091 posts, read 7,042,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricS39 View Post
And the German reich, with the US not participating in WW2, successfully developed atomic weaponry

What would your prediction be of life in the US today?

Would the German reich have succeeded in world domination?

With a US armed with guns and a Nazi regime that threatened US to abide by German orders or else face atomic bombs on all US cities, let's just say this scenario surfaced....and a Soviet Russia that was forced to surrender after 5 atomic bombs were dropped and Moscow lay in shambles

I think the answer is chilling. Soviet surrender and Adolf would have looked to Britain and said "now is your chance at peace. We can't nuke you without damaging our own empire mainland territory at the same time so we have decided to forgive and forget...if so you British accept our offer. You, in turn, will then need to join us and your then lives will prosper under the reich leadership. Or else, so you make the unfortunate choice to remain stubborn, more of yours will die and your friends over in America will pay the ultimate price. There is no deadline to when you can switch sides. Your fate will be naval bombings till extinction, however, if stubborn leftism is the choice you make in your hands and the hands of your leftist leaders."
The Germans would probably have developed the atom bomb. The question is if Hitler had not attacked the Soviet Union in 1941, how long could they have remained at peace? Eventually they go to war.

The German Reich have not have succeeded in world domination. With nuclear weapons they might have forced the British to surrender, without nuclear weapons they could not have invaded Great Britain in the 1940s.

And now my turn. What if all of the following had occurred?
*Hitler had taken a strategy of a Fortress Europe and not attacked the Soviet Union.
*Hitler does not launch the Battle of Britain and lose 3,000 planes and experienced pilots.
*Hitler forces Franco to join the Axis.
*Hitler does not attack Norway.
*Hitler does not declare war on the US.
*Hitler concentrates on cutting off the Mediterranean at both Gibraltar and the Suez Canal.
*Hitler concentrates on gaining access to oil supplies and becoming self-sufficient.

Would the eventual outcome have been the same?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:32 PM
 
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His scenario is far fetched for a thousand reasons. I'll list a few.
-The Germans were never that close to developing the a-bomb. They were at least 5 years away at best in 1945.
-The technology needed to launch bombs across continents did not exist during WW2.
-The Germans would have needed at least a dozen a-bombs in order to bomb both the U.S. and Russia into capitulation.
-The British warships had naval supremacy over the Atlantic from the outset, so the idea of the Germans using aircraft carriers to get planes within bombing range was impossible. Maybe if the bombs and planes were built in Mexico?
-The notion of Hitler not invading Russia defeats the purpose of Hitler's entire agenda.
-Had Hitler not invaded Russia and just nuked them into submission, the land in European Russia would be useless.

Overall, your scenario depends on the Germans building an entire nuclear arsenal and inter-continental ballistic capability years before it was technically possible, and assumes that the U.S. and Russia do not do the same. It also assumes that the Soviets never invade Europe which was strong liklihood had Hitler not invaded first. Stalin was preparing for war with the Germans in 1942 or '43 at the latest. Had Stalin taken the initiative rather than being surprised by Hitler in 1941, the results would have been much more favorable to the Soviets.

A much more realistic scenario to achieve the conclusion you came to would be the alt-WW1 scenario. The Germans defeated Russia in 1917 and gained large swathes of Russian territory, and occupied virtually all of Eastern Europe. The Germans came very close to defeating the Allies on the Western Front. Without U.S. involvement, it is possible that the Allies would have been defeated on the Western Front. Had the Germans won WW1, they would have been the world's first superpower and would have virtually owned Europe. They also would have dominated Middle Eastern affairs and North Africa.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:50 PM
 
3,913 posts, read 8,313,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
The Germans would probably have developed the atom bomb. The question is if Hitler had not attacked the Soviet Union in 1941, how long could they have remained at peace? Eventually they go to war.

The German Reich have not have succeeded in world domination. With nuclear weapons they might have forced the British to surrender, without nuclear weapons they could not have invaded Great Britain in the 1940s.

And now my turn. What if all of the following had occurred?
*Hitler had taken a strategy of a Fortress Europe and not attacked the Soviet Union.
*Hitler does not launch the Battle of Britain and lose 3,000 planes and experienced pilots.
*Hitler forces Franco to join the Axis.
*Hitler does not attack Norway.
*Hitler does not declare war on the US.
*Hitler concentrates on cutting off the Mediterranean at both Gibraltar and the Suez Canal.
*Hitler concentrates on gaining access to oil supplies and becoming self-sufficient.

Would the eventual outcome have been the same?
I have several bones to pick with your bullet points.

I don't see what negative impact attacking Norway had. Hitler wanted to secure iron-ore deposits that were needed. It was a massive success.

The notion of Hitler not attacking the Soviet Union goes counter to his agenda as outlined in Mein Kampfh. The entire point of going to war was to gain living space for the German people in European Russia. Hitler wanted revenge on France for WW1, but didn't care much about the land. He saw defeating France militarily as a necessary prerequisite to invading the U.S.S.R. to avoid a 2-front war.

The idea of Franco joining the Axis is not really much of a benefit. The quality of Franco's forces were probably a couple of notches below the Italian forces, and that is not saying much. Also, Spain would have been vulnerable to British attack. In all liklihood, Spain's involvement would have ended in similar fashion to the Italians. With an Allied invasion and German troops having to pick up the slack from the folding Spaniards.

The bottom line for Hitler and the Germans was they were taking on too many countries with too few men. The Germans were too thinly spread to be effective by 1943. It was clear that Germany's army was the best in WW2, but they had limited manpower and limited production capability. The German plan for success was reliant on quick defeats of the enemy. When they failed to quickly defeat the Soviets in 1941, the Germans became bogged down in a war of attrition. They were facing an enemy that had 3-4 times as many men and could simply wear them down with numbers.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolefan34 View Post
I have several bones to pick with your bullet points.

I don't see what negative impact attacking Norway had. Hitler wanted to secure iron-ore deposits that were needed. It was a massive success.

The notion of Hitler not attacking the Soviet Union goes counter to his agenda as outlined in Mein Kampfh. The entire point of going to war was to gain living space for the German people in European Russia. Hitler wanted revenge on France for WW1, but didn't care much about the land. He saw defeating France militarily as a necessary prerequisite to invading the U.S.S.R. to avoid a 2-front war.

The idea of Franco joining the Axis is not really much of a benefit. The quality of Franco's forces were probably a couple of notches below the Italian forces, and that is not saying much. Also, Spain would have been vulnerable to British attack. In all liklihood, Spain's involvement would have ended in similar fashion to the Italians. With an Allied invasion and German troops having to pick up the slack from the folding Spaniards.

The bottom line for Hitler and the Germans was they were taking on too many countries with too few men. The Germans were too thinly spread to be effective by 1943. It was clear that Germany's army was the best in WW2, but they had limited manpower and limited production capability. The German plan for success was reliant on quick defeats of the enemy. When they failed to quickly defeat the Soviets in 1941, the Germans became bogged down in a war of attrition. They were facing an enemy that had 3-4 times as many men and could simply wear them down with numbers.
Good points. I wasn't aware of the iron-ore deposits and thought Norway was just a distraction that used up German troops for occupation.

Mein Kampf appears to have sealed Hitler and Germany's fate since Germany could not have occupied the entire Soviet Union.

My reasoning about Spain was not to gain Spain's military assistance but to control the Strait of Gibraltar. Hitler had plans to capture Gibraltar but wanted Franco's cooperation. Franco may have cooperated if Wilhelm Canaris had not sabotaged the plan.

German occupation of Gibraltar could have made Operation Torch much more difficult. This in turn would have delayed the surrender of Italy and the subsequent bombing of the Romanian oil refineries from Italy.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:22 PM
 
3,913 posts, read 8,313,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Good points. I wasn't aware of the iron-ore deposits and thought Norway was just a distraction that used up German troops for occupation.

Mein Kampf appears to have sealed Hitler and Germany's fate since Germany could not have occupied the entire Soviet Union.

My reasoning about Spain was not to gain Spain's military assistance but to control the Strait of Gibraltar. Hitler had plans to capture Gibraltar but wanted Franco's cooperation. Franco may have cooperated if Wilhelm Canaris had not sabotaged the plan.

German occupation of Gibraltar could have made Operation Torch much more difficult. This in turn would have delayed the surrender of Italy and the subsequent bombing of the Romanian oil refineries from Italy.
The Germans invaded Norway not only for iron-ore, but to deny the British. The Germans and British were planning and executing invasions of Norway simultaneously. The Germans knew that a British occupation of Norway would be a springboard for air attacks and a potential cross-channel invasion of Germany's homeland. The Germans executed their invasion more swiftly and were able to push the British back eventually compelling them to withdraw. This ultimately cost Neville Chamberlin his job.

The Germans never intended to capture the entire Soviet Union. They only wanted the European part of the Soviet Union which is the areas west of the Ural Mountains. Defeating the Soviets wasn't thought to be so difficult by the Germans since they had defeated the Russians just 24 years prior in thorough fashion. In WW1, the Germans conquered more Russian territory than they ever did in WW2. So the idea that the Soviet Union was some invincible entity wasn't thought to be the case pre-war. The idea was that if the Germans struck quickly and inflicted maximum casualties, the Soviet armies would fold like a house of cards.

Regarding Spain, it would have been nice for Hitler if the Spanish could simply occupy their own country and deny the Allies access to the Mediterranean. But again, this would have opened Spain up to a possible Allied invasion. Spain had more to lose than to gain. They stood to gain no territory, but stood to lose everything in the event of defeat. Inevitably, Spain's involvement would have resulted in the Germans having to divert more troops, tanks, planes, and other valuable resources to the Iberian Peninsula. For the Axis strategy, it is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. The Allies would have found a way to invade Africa one way or another even if it took longer.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:09 PM
 
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There's not chance the US was not going to fight Germany. Lets face it, Germany was trying to take our job, and that is dominating the world economically and militarily. No way the power brokers in the US would have stood for that.

The US was closer to the Atomic weapon than Germany before the war started. No matter what, we would have developed it first
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:04 PM
 
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Realistically, Japan might have ground on and on in China, evenutally cutting some deal with Chiang Kai-Shek to be their puppet, and then wiping out the Communists. They probably could have kept much of what they had in some lasting fashion if they never went to war with the US and UK. Dai Nippon would eventually prove to be a ally against the USSR.

Germany's position in Europe was only ever going to get weaker. The cost of fighting WWII drained Britain enormously. Being able to actually wrap that up at some point would probably have bought the Empire a few more years at least, and really I'm not sure they wouldn't have managed to wear away some of the German gains in the periphery of Europe on their own. Similarly as awful as Stalin and the USSR was they were able to pose a realistic threat to the West in OTL. With the Nazis destroying the German education system, they would have had no trouble keeping up with Nazi Germany over the long term. Things would be grim within Germany and its allies for a lot of people, and Nazi policies would weaken Germany over the long term.

Both countries would probably be viewed in the West as barely tolerated allies put up with because the communists posed a worse threat to the world in general.
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