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Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,164,711 times
Reputation: 8105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAllenDoudna
What are you asking us for, kiddo? Looks like you've pretty much decided already. First of all, sonny, it is unlikely the President and Congress will all be out of town and given the kind of research Al Qaida does they wouldn't pick a time like that anyway. Al Qaida would more likely pick Los Angeles to set off their nuke because of all the sinful movies produced there that have been corrupting the youth in Islamic countries and because the fatwah authorizing the nuking of America specified ten million Americans could be killed and there are ten million people in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area.
But you said DC so all-right, they nuke Washington, DC. I will specify that they get the President and most of Congress because that is far and away more likely and in any Alternative History or Speculative Future you need to stick with things that are likely to happen if your speculation is to have any credibility. It's well-nigh impossible to wipe out the U. S. Government. Should the President die the Constitution prescribes a line of succession that begins with the Vice President then the Speaker of the House, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, the Secretary of State, and after that each member of the President's Cabinet. The Secret Service keeps at least one member of the Cabinet at a location secure from nuclear attack at all times so we will always be assured of having a President. The Governor of each state can appoint someone to fill a vacancy in the Senate and to have a special election to fill any vacancy in the House of Representatives so the Federal Government would be very swiftly re-established and most likely opperate out of someplace in the interior such as Kansas City or Memphis.
Now, would we knuckle under? No! Americans would be mad as a stired up nest of hornets! But Al Qaida has two more bombs--ALL THE MORE REASON TO WIPE THE RAGHEADS OUT!!!!!!!!! To meekly submit when we're over a barrel has never been an American trait. Americans did not surrender at the Alamo though they knew they would die. Neither North nor South was inclined to accept defeat just because the other side got the better of them in a battle or the odds were stacked against them. In World War II after Admiral Halsey went after what proved to be a Japanese decoy fleet American forces at Leyte were horrified to be suddenly confronted by nearly all of the remaining naval strength of Japan--including the world's most powerful battleship. All we had at Leyte were some small destroyers and tiny taffy carriers--but we desperately threw these at them. It would be like a man with a snub nosed pistol charging a .50 cal machinegun. In the Korean War planes with Chinese or North Korean markings were often flown by Russians. They quickly learned that American pilots would NOT retreat even when outnumbered. Backing down is just not part of the American character. In the past when Americans have been confronted with a situation such as you describe it always produces a blind rage that would wipe out the entire Mid-East and not bother distinguishing between Good Moslems and Bad Moslems. And that part about not torturing prisoners--we'd torture the truth out of them about those other two bombs.
What are you asking us for, kiddo? Looks like you've pretty much decided already. First of all, sonny, it is unlikely the President and Congress will all be out of town and given the kind of research Al Qaida does they wouldn't pick a time like that anyway. Al Qaida would more likely pick Los Angeles to set off their nuke because of all the sinful movies produced there that have been corrupting the youth in Islamic countries and because the fatwah authorizing the nuking of America specified ten million Americans could be killed and there are ten million people in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area.
But you said DC so all-right, they nuke Washington, DC. I will specify that they get the President and most of Congress because that is far and away more likely and in any Alternative History or Speculative Future you need to stick with things that are likely to happen if your speculation is to have any credibility. It's well-nigh impossible to wipe out the U. S. Government. Should the President die the Constitution prescribes a line of succession that begins with the Vice President then the Speaker of the House, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, the Secretary of State, and after that each member of the President's Cabinet. The Secret Service keeps at least one member of the Cabinet at a location secure from nuclear attack at all times so we will always be assured of having a President. The Governor of each state can appoint someone to fill a vacancy in the Senate and to have a special election to fill any vacancy in the House of Representatives so the Federal Government would be very swiftly re-established and most likely opperate out of someplace in the interior such as Kansas City or Memphis.
Now, would we knuckle under? No! Americans would be mad as a stired up nest of hornets! But Al Qaida has two more bombs--ALL THE MORE REASON TO WIPE THE RAGHEADS OUT!!!!!!!!! To meekly submit when we're over a barrel has never been an American trait. Americans did not surrender at the Alamo though they knew they would die. Neither North nor South was inclined to accept defeat just because the other side got the better of them in a battle or the odds were stacked against them. In World War II after Admiral Halsey went after what proved to be a Japanese decoy fleet American forces at Leyte were horrified to be suddenly confronted by nearly all of the remaining naval strength of Japan--including the world's most powerful battleship. All we had at Leyte were some small destroyers and tiny taffy carriers--but we desperately threw these at them. It would be like a man with a snub nosed pistol charging a .50 cal machinegun. In the Korean War planes with Chinese or North Korean markings were often flown by Russians. They quickly learned that American pilots would NOT retreat even when outnumbered. Backing down is just not part of the American character. In the past when Americans have been confronted with a situation such as you describe it always produces a blind rage that would wipe out the entire Mid-East and not bother distinguishing between Good Moslems and Bad Moslems. And that part about not torturing prisoners--we'd torture the truth out of them about those other two bombs.
Only one thing wrong with this:
The US government would move to Denver or Colorado Springs. They are much more isolated than either KC or Memphis and have a greater military presence -- especially Colorado Springs.
These two cities are more secure with the possibility of using the Cheyenne Mountain complex as a (temporary) headquarters for the government. Long term, the government would likely stay here and become more of a militaristic government.
The panic caused by a true nuke, no matter how small, would far outweigh 911. Then the president has to decide what to do about the threat of many more being killed in LA and NYC.
Any yield of nuclear weapon can be made from W54 to the Tsar Bomba. The bigger problem is whether one can be made small enough by thirdworlder nations to sell to AQ, and to smuggle in easily.
I still don't see the scenario at all. You don't get it. A bomb goes off, a threat of more bombs occur. You will get panic, business disruption, citizens abandon urban centers or go to shelters, the military is mobilized. And then what? The last thing I would expect is a surrender. Why? Again - you are dealing with a tactical weapon, not a strategic weapon. You are also missing the goals and objectives of this type of warfare - terrorism. It's essentially a defensive type of warfare or one of liberation or to achieve a certain political objective. The objective is not to have the enemy surrendor, at least not as you envision it. Your scenario is simply inconcievble. There are no foreign terrorist groups with goals to occupy the US. Kill Americans? Yes. Convert Americans, Occupy America? HAHAHA - ummm, no. The concept is silly and nonsensical.
As far as nuclear technology - again, bigger is better applies. You mention the W54 - yeah, very small yield for a nuclear device, it might take out a bridge. You would require a nuclear device the size of a shipping container to do any significant damage (and that's why some of our ports are in danger - but that can be addressed by closing ports in an event of an emergency).
The US government would move to Denver or Colorado Springs. They are much more isolated than either KC or Memphis and have a greater military presence -- especially Colorado Springs.
These two cities are more secure with the possibility of using the Cheyenne Mountain complex as a (temporary) headquarters for the government. Long term, the government would likely stay here and become more of a militaristic government.
Your choice is more likely; I just named a couple of places in the interior.
Pretty much like the future of the world after 911 -- we can learn from history. Higher death count, but nearly all minorities, none of them New Yorkers, so, so what. The affairs of the business carried out in the vaporized buildings goes on elsewhere, just like after 911, when no World Trade company or investor lost a nickel. and just rented space in another high-rise and hired new staff. The USA runs around the globe like a headless chicken, blaming and lashing out at everybody too weak to defend themselves, except Israel, the planet goes into a vortex of revenge, torture rises to a Ghengisian level in the name of Closure, Americans happily surrender their remaining constitutional rights in exchange for imagined security. Statues carved of the important victims. The far right says "we told you so" (even though they didn't) and ascend to unprecedented fascist power. In other words, history repeats itself, but on a lustier scale. Childishly easy to predict..
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,164,711 times
Reputation: 8105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
I still don't see the scenario at all. You don't get it. A bomb goes off, a threat of more bombs occur. You will get panic, business disruption, citizens abandon urban centers or go to shelters, the military is mobilized. And then what? The last thing I would expect is a surrender. Why? Again - you are dealing with a tactical weapon, not a strategic weapon. You are also missing the goals and objectives of this type of warfare - terrorism. It's essentially a defensive type of warfare or one of liberation or to achieve a certain political objective. The objective is not to have the enemy surrendor, at least not as you envision it. Your scenario is simply inconcievble. There are no foreign terrorist groups with goals to occupy the US. Kill Americans? Yes. Convert Americans, Occupy America? HAHAHA - ummm, no. The concept is silly and nonsensical.
As far as nuclear technology - again, bigger is better applies. You mention the W54 - yeah, very small yield for a nuclear device, it might take out a bridge. You would require a nuclear device the size of a shipping container to do any significant damage (and that's why some of our ports are in danger - but that can be addressed by closing ports in an event of an emergency).
"Not giving in to their demands" would be one way to answer the scenario. I didn't say that we had to actually surrender, I just said that would be the demand made of us. If you don't think they would make that particular demand, you could substitute whatever you think is likely - such as total withdrawal from the ME.
You don't seem to be able to understand the point of me referring to the W54. I said that any range of nukes can be made, from W54 at the low end to the Tsar Bomba at the high end. I didn't say either of those two would be used, just that it's possible to be anything. I thought a lowish size might be more likely to be smuggled, and more likely to be affordable - also I'm emphasizing the panic aspect rather than the destruction (which would be reversed for the far less likely scenario of heavy bombardment from, say, Russia).
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,164,711 times
Reputation: 8105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Pretty much like the future of the world after 911. More immediate casualties, but the rest will follow suit. The USA runs around like a headless chicken, blaming and lashing out at everybody in sight except Israel, the planet goes into a vortex of revenge, Americans happily surrender all their constitutional rights..
I agree. I think we and the world would lose a great deal of the advances of modern civilization from the one act, maybe even technological advances other than needed by the military (already they're funding quite a bit of the cutting-edge research) - since fear would disrupt many supply chains, drain resources for security, and screw up financial transactions such as investing ....... a whole new set of nations might emerge as leaders if they're less affected by the chaos.
we actually have a really good idea what American cities al-Qaeda prefers to attack. Know how we have this idea? [Hint - September 11, 2001] And Los Angeles didn't make the short list.
Al Qaida has issued lists and Los Angeles is on them. There have been failed attempts at terrorist strikes at LAX (Los Angeles International Airport and these have been reported in the news.
The Jihadists have two criteria in deciding which American cities to hit:
1) They pick places they've heard of.
2) They pick places they percieve as a threat to Islam.
Los Angeles fits both of those categories. So do Las Vegas, Miami, San Francisco, and New York. San Francisco has homosexuals who are put to death in Islamic countries. New York is the biggest Jewish city in the world, more Jews than Jerusalem.
"Not giving in to their demands" would be one way to answer the scenario. I didn't say that we had to actually surrender, I just said that would be the demand made of us. If you don't think they would make that particular demand, you could substitute whatever you think is likely - such as total withdrawal from the ME.
You don't seem to be able to understand the point of me referring to the W54. I said that any range of nukes can be made, from W54 at the low end to the Tsar Bomba at the high end. I didn't say either of those two would be used, just that it's possible to be anything. I thought a lowish size might be more likely to be smuggled, and more likely to be affordable - also I'm emphasizing the panic aspect rather than the destruction (which would be reversed for the far less likely scenario of heavy bombardment from, say, Russia).
Son, you put too many flawed elements into your scenario and now it's falling apart. If nobody understands you then you were not clear to begin with. Take this and learn from it.
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,164,711 times
Reputation: 8105
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAllenDoudna
Son, you put too many flawed elements into your scenario and now it's falling apart. If nobody understands you then you were not clear to begin with. Take this and learn from it.
Hopefully I'm not your son, and you're the only one who is still confused. I'm very clear except to those who have reading comprehension problems.
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