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Old 07-02-2014, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
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When I was in school, I learned that the assassination of the Archduke of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Franz Ferdinand, started the war due to a great entanglement of conflicting treaties.

That doesn't say much to us Americans. We mostly don't know the difference between a Duke or a Count, and know even less about an empire that died forever 100 years ago. I just read a good Wikipedia article on all of that, and it gave me a good picture of those complex times and their leaders.

While the history is far too long and complex for me to tackle here, if you really want an understanding of the black hole of World War I became, check this out. Then follow Franz Ferdinand to get the relationships that knotted all of Europe's kings and emperors into a tight knot that killed some of them and left none un-touched.

Austria-Hungary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Bronx
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Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
It may have been the lethal deadlock that saddens you. The Somme battlefield alone killed 3 million young men before the war ended.

Another great sadness: About 20% of the young women of 1918 never married in Germany, France, and Great Britain after the war ended. Their fiancees and boyfriends died, and the women never got over the grief of their loss.

Many were never asked again or ever entered another close relationship with a man who was a candidate for marriage.
On the streets of Paris, there was no young men or a huge decline of young men after wars end. Same could also be said for London. A generation of men were whipped out, as well as a decline in births and marriages.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Bronx
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Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
By 1918, Russia would have been the strongest country in Europe. Allied with France, it would have presented Germany with the prospect of an unwinable war. Germany would have had to seek another partner to ward off the Russian/French alliance. England, probably. IF Germany could accommodate England in matters of the navies (where Germany had already stopped is naval expansion program in 1912), colonies and Belgium. Germany and England had historically been partners and had a common heritage, which soldiers from both sides found out in 1914.

If war could have been avoided over Sarajevo, it might never have happened. The opportunity for war was passing. The French desire to avenge 1870 was ebbing. England had won the naval race. If the Kaiser had not been so supportive of Austria's demands against Serbia, no WWI or WWII might ever have happened.

By the late 1920's, all of Europe might have been too absorbed by challenges from the US and Japan to pay much attention to its own divisions.
The Christmas Truce between British and German soldiers?
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
The Christmas Truce between British and German soldiers?
That's right. The Germans and English heard each other singing Christmas carols. Soon, they left the trenches. They talked together, played soccer, exchanged momentoes. They refused to fire on each other when the officers got them back in. Units were transferred to face soldiers they weren't familiar with, and the fighting resumed.

The start of the war was truly a tragedy. Germany thought Austria had won all the concessions it required of Serbia, but Austria was intent on provoking Serbia to war, to obliterating it. Stupidly, Germany kept backing them. Then, when the Kaiser learned of the Russian mobilization he telegraphed Czar Nicolas, a cousin, to try to talk him out of it. When the Russians proceeded, the Germans declared war on them and then on France. At the last minute the Kaiser tried to get the General Staff to redirect the German offensive towards Russia instead of France. Von Moltke the Younger, chief of the general staff, almost had a heart attack. All the time schedules, mobilization depots, the orientation of the railroads was based on an initial strike against France. It's said he never regained his confidence after the encounter.

Once mobilizations started, war was inevitable. If a country didn't mobilize once its enemy did, it was dead meat. All the countries planned for war and that's what all their planning got them.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
True, but it was the peace agreement (surrender of Germany) that sowed the seeds of WWII.

Many wise heads warned about making Germany pay too high a price for her war making, but Wilson and others would hear none of that. The United States was first out of the box with demanding the crowned heads of Europe's Axis powers (what was left of them) be swept aside as America would not deal with the "old order" who it saw as responsible for the war.

The Treaty of Versailles imposed very harsh terms on Germany which directly lead to first inflation then hyper inflation of the Weimar Republic and all that came with it. That plus it rubbed Germany's nose in their defeat and left them feeling humiliated. It was only a matter of time before the Nazis and Hitler (or someone like them) rose to power largely on claims of restoring Germany's pride.
What else were the French/Allies supposed to do? Let the Germans off scotch free? The Germans were the aggressors on the Western Front. They attacked first by invading Holland, Belgium, and France, and causing widespread death, destruction, and property damage in the process. The German Army occupied vast parts of northern France during the war, and those lands were useless afterwards. I don't blame the French one bit for being pissed and wanting vast restrictions on Germany.

You say the harsh Treaty of Versailles restrictions on Germany lead directly to WW2. But had the Allies imposed little or no restrictions, what would have stopped Germany from regrouping and invading again a year later? Germany was going to rebuild and invade again sooner or later. Versailles just delayed it 20 years.
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Old 07-04-2014, 06:13 AM
 
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Germany didn't invade Holland and Holland didn't participate in WWI.

The American military staff were the most prescient observers of the situation in 1918. Pershing, Patton argued that the allies should chase the German army all the way to Berlin. Of course, it didn't happen. 11/11/18, truce was declared and the German army returned to Germany where they received a heroes welcome. Most Germans felt their army was undefeated. No other army had ever fought against the whole world. Germans were proud of their army. It wasn't long before many people were saying the army had been betrayed, sold out. The seeds for the next war were sown.

Physically, Germany was spared WWI's destruction. Much of France was as lifeless as the surface of the moon. France and England had more men killed in WWI than in WWII. It is hard to see how the allied governments could face their people if they had made for a generous peace. People don't think that far ahead. Millions of French and English families were without fathers and husbands. Vengeance had to be served and Germany had to be weakened.

Hindsight is 20-20. At the time, under the circumstances, can anyone say any other resolution to WWI was even possible?
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
On the streets of Paris, there was no young men or a huge decline of young men after wars end. Same could also be said for London. A generation of men were whipped out, as well as a decline in births and marriages.
When you watch shows like Downton Abbey and witness the problems Lady Edith has in finding a husband it doesn't begin to tell the full story.

For young Edwardian women especially those of the upper classes what was left after WWII were often very slim pickings indeed. With so many young men of their own age or slightly above or below wiped out due to WWI that meant the available pool of eligible men to marry was small. Even what was left contained high numbers of physically and or mentally maimed men as the "best of the lot" so to speak.

Thus women had to make choices. Like Lady Edith make due with older men (her first dumped her at the altar, the second though slightly younger has gone missing in Germany), marry beneath and or out of their class (something Edwardian society still frowned upon), or simply resign themselves to being spinsters.

A young healthy man post WWI of any class in much of Europe would have been spoiled for choice of marriage partners. OTOH even late as the 1960's you still found hundreds of spinsters (by now elderly) all over the UK and Europe. These were the young women of WWI era that either lost husbands or never got married and that was that. It explains why so many growing up in the 1950's and 1960's had one or more maiden aunts in their family.
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Germany didn't invade Holland and Holland didn't participate in WWI.

The American military staff were the most prescient observers of the situation in 1918. Pershing, Patton argued that the allies should chase the German army all the way to Berlin. Of course, it didn't happen. 11/11/18, truce was declared and the German army returned to Germany where they received a heroes welcome. Most Germans felt their army was undefeated. No other army had ever fought against the whole world. Germans were proud of their army. It wasn't long before many people were saying the army had been betrayed, sold out. The seeds for the next war were sown.

Physically, Germany was spared WWI's destruction. Much of France was as lifeless as the surface of the moon. France and England had more men killed in WWI than in WWII. It is hard to see how the allied governments could face their people if they had made for a generous peace. People don't think that far ahead. Millions of French and English families were without fathers and husbands. Vengeance had to be served and Germany had to be weakened.

Hindsight is 20-20. At the time, under the circumstances, can anyone say any other resolution to WWI was even possible?
Though the terms of peace post WWII were slightly less harsh and the USA along with other Allied countries even pitched in to lessen post war hardships on Western Germans (if only just), one wonders how much of that was directly related to preventing Stalin and Communism from engulfing all of Europe.

Certainly little was done by the USA/Allies in the immediate wake of WWII as the Russian military served back what they and that country considered just punishment. The mass rape of German women along with looting of almost anything that could be found and moved to Russia was well known by Allied military, but went on longer than it should have.

It is rather ironic that today as Putin seeks to recreate the Soviet Union that Germany choses to dwell upon historic ties to that country (leaving aside those two pesky World Wars), and largely stays out of things.
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:58 PM
 
3,910 posts, read 9,466,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Germany didn't invade Holland and Holland didn't participate in WWI.

The American military staff were the most prescient observers of the situation in 1918. Pershing, Patton argued that the allies should chase the German army all the way to Berlin. Of course, it didn't happen. 11/11/18, truce was declared and the German army returned to Germany where they received a heroes welcome. Most Germans felt their army was undefeated. No other army had ever fought against the whole world. Germans were proud of their army. It wasn't long before many people were saying the army had been betrayed, sold out. The seeds for the next war were sown.

Physically, Germany was spared WWI's destruction. Much of France was as lifeless as the surface of the moon. France and England had more men killed in WWI than in WWII. It is hard to see how the allied governments could face their people if they had made for a generous peace. People don't think that far ahead. Millions of French and English families were without fathers and husbands. Vengeance had to be served and Germany had to be weakened.

Hindsight is 20-20. At the time, under the circumstances, can anyone say any other resolution to WWI was even possible?
I stand corrected on the Germans invading Holland, but the Dutch army had to remain mobilized during the entire war in fear of a German invasion. The war also destroyed the Dutch economy as it cut off their import-exports. Their only trading partner was Germany, and that was not a good thing. Holland was effectively blockaded by Germany during the war. So it was almost as bad as being occupied.

My larger argument was that Versailles didn't cause WW2, it delayed it. The Germans were going to invade again no matter what the outcome in 1918. Had the terms been lenient, the Germans could have rebuilt their army very quickly and resumed conflict within a few years. Germany was in a much better situation in terms of manpower at the end of WW2 than the French or British. Anything less than severe restrictions on the Germany Army's size would have meant probable disaster for France in the near future. The Versailles treat effectively eliminated the threat of the German military for about 15 years. Even when Hitler denounced the Versailles Treaty in 1934, it still took years before the army could be rebuilt for war due to the severity of the restrictions.
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