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Old 08-18-2014, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,996 posts, read 29,823,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAllenDoudna View Post
The Mormons had originally intended to form their own country the same way the Texans had done and the Californians started to do. But the United States gained control of all that area in the 1848 war with Mexico. Mormons still tried to maintain some sort of independance, though. To understand all of this you would need to understand how vastly different from other Christian Faiths Mormonism is and how big a role churches played in American life at that time as religion deeply influenced political decisions--slavery, for instance. The Mormon practice of polygammy threatened to out-populate and therefore out-vote all other Faiths. The Mormons also believe in a current, reigning Prophet whose word superceeds Federal, State, and Local governments. Thus there was quite a bit of anti-Mormon sentiment and the Mormons wanted their own country so they could be free of it.
That's a very interesting perspective. Allow me to add a few facts which, in order to present an accurate picture, need to be told. The Mormons were forceably driven out of their homes in countless locations throughout what was the United States at that time. It was never their intention to "form their own country," but what do you do when the Governor of the state (Missouri) where most of them were living at the time signed an executive order authorizing the people of Missouri to "exterminate" the Mormons there? You leave -- for the upteenth time. You leave the United States entirely, not because you want to form your own country, but because you're not wanted in this country. (Incidentally, this law was on the books in Missouri until 1976; you read that right -- 1976, not 1876.)

Despite having repeated petitioned the government for redress of grievances, and having had every petition denied, they fled Illinois in early-February, 1846 -- hardly the optimum time of the year to begin a 1300-mile migration. Within less than six months of having been forced out of the country, the nation which had been persecuting them for the past 16 years (ever since the Church's founding) found itself in need of 500 able-bodied men to fight with the United States in its war against Mexico. Despite the fact that it was in Mexican territory they intended to settle, roughly 550 Mormon men voluntarily answered the call to serve, leaving their wives and children to travel across the Great Plains without them, and marching nearly 2000 miles from Council Bluffs, Iowa to San Diego. Does this sound like something a group of people "intending to form their own country" would behave? Their march significantly aided the country they were being driven out of to secure much of the American Southwest.

Regarding the Mormon belief in a living prophet, it is true that they do so. However, his word has never superceeded federal, state and local law. As a matter of fact, one of the Church's "Articles of Faith," which were written several years prior to their forced exodus, states, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." The prophet's word pertains to matters of faith, and there is not now nor has their ever been any intention by the Church to take over any country in which it has a presence.

Polygamy: Not really an issue at that time. There were literally just a handful of Mormons at that time who were practicing polygamy. It wasn't even made an official practice in the Church until 1852, six years after the Mormons were driven out of the U.S., when they had finally established communities in Utah, which wouldn't attain statehood for another 40+ years. Hardly anyone even knew about the practice when the exodus began, and there were certainly no concerns that Mormons would be able to out-vote all other faiths in the foreseeable future. Fast forward a hundred and seventy years and Mormons still only represent .2% of the United States population. Clearly, had polygamy continued past when it was official brought to an end (in 1893), the Church would have ultimately seen significant growth. But even when the practice was at its height in Utah (during the latter half of the nineteenth century) only about 5% of all Mormon men had more than one wife. That leaves 95% of Mormon couples as monogamous. Not a huge threat.
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:44 PM
 
888 posts, read 452,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
Many of these families had heirlooms that had been brought from Europe by the original immigrants and, because of their weight, eventually had to abandon them on the trail. It wasn't uncommon to come upon a muddy stretch and see desks, other furniture, even pianos sitting by the side.

When I take a walk out on a sunshiny day on what little natural prairie we have left I try to imagine what it must have been like walking through the tall grass with the birds and butterflies. It must have been glorious some days on their way to their new homes. And after the reading I've done I also remember the trepidation and the loss which must have traveled with them.
I heard an account of a wagon train trip where someone said were they to have done it again, they would have sold all their furniture before leaving and started with an empty wagon. Then along the way they would have had their pickings of free furniture.

Prairie country is beautiful and I too wonder what it would be like to walk in grasses taller than myself.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:19 AM
Status: "117 N/A" (set 3 days ago)
 
12,920 posts, read 13,611,483 times
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By November 1857 it seems McGuire is in Sacramento teaching and still hopes to make his way into Oregon. He reads in the paper about the “loss of Central America" and the financial crisis in the east. He continues to rail against the "Saints of Utah" He writes Young has proclaimed martial Law and many Mormons in San Bernardino are selling off everything for a tenth of its value in preparation for the war with the United States. All the Indians around here he writes are Mormons and they have an army of about 5000 of them. He also says you see their dignitaries riding horses of the emigrants left murdered on the trail.

The price of draft horses is $600-800 a pair (not a piece) Interesting that would be still cheaper than the price of a single slave and the productivity from a pair of horses makes it clear why so many were going out west to find their fortunes in 1857.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Central Nebraska
553 posts, read 593,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
Prairie country is beautiful and I too wonder what it would be like to walk in grasses taller than myself.
The tall grass prairie was mostly east of the Missouri. Eastern Nebraska the grass was waist high, by Central Nebraska it was short grass prairie knee-high or less. It's really beautiful as the wind blows across it and the grass ripples in waves like the ocean. You get the full glory of sunset and sunrise. The scenery is not spectacular, but it is pretty. I'll share a little secret: If you're on I-80 near North Platte take the Maxwell exit and go north 3 miles. You'll be where the Sand Hills meet the Platte Valley. Get out of your car and walk up to the top of the hill to the west. It's a beautiful view of the Platte Valley, in my opinion much better than Sioux Lookout southesat of North Platte.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:25 AM
Status: "117 N/A" (set 3 days ago)
 
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If you get out to Oregon the wagon ruts are a must see, but I know people in Kansas who have wagon ruts on their property.
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:36 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,484 posts, read 6,495,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
If you get out to Oregon the wagon ruts are a must see, but I know people in Kansas who have wagon ruts on their property.
The same things are true for parts of the old Santa Fe Trail in northeastern New Mexico.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:12 PM
 
202 posts, read 310,187 times
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[I decided to google the name, location from the letters and sure enough a hit pull up J. H. McGuire, Alton Ill, and Shurtleff College where his journey began and the originals appear to be in an archive there.]

Is there by chance a link to an archive?

I also have a book possibly similar to, or the same as the one someone upthread mentioned. It's called "Pioneer Women" and it's made of papers/diaries found in the author's grandmother's attic - or something like that. Fascinating!

Thank you for sharing!
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:09 PM
Status: "117 N/A" (set 3 days ago)
 
12,920 posts, read 13,611,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illini1959 View Post
[I decided to google the name, location from the letters and sure enough a hit pull up J. H. McGuire, Alton Ill, and Shurtleff College where his journey began and the originals appear to be in an archive there.]

Is there by chance a link to an archive?

I also have a book possibly similar to, or the same as the one someone upthread mentioned. It's called "Pioneer Women" and it's made of papers/diaries found in the author's grandmother's attic - or something like that. Fascinating!

Thank you for sharing!
I didn't search any further than the preliminary google search. I just wanted to see if the name was anywhere on the internet or if it was fictional. I would bet someone in Alton Illinois who works in genealogy or Southern Illinois university might find an archives with the originals.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:57 PM
 
888 posts, read 452,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAllenDoudna View Post
The tall grass prairie was mostly east of the Missouri. Eastern Nebraska the grass was waist high, by Central Nebraska it was short grass prairie knee-high or less. It's really beautiful as the wind blows across it and the grass ripples in waves like the ocean. You get the full glory of sunset and sunrise. The scenery is not spectacular, but it is pretty. I'll share a little secret: If you're on I-80 near North Platte take the Maxwell exit and go north 3 miles. You'll be where the Sand Hills meet the Platte Valley. Get out of your car and walk up to the top of the hill to the west. It's a beautiful view of the Platte Valley, in my opinion much better than Sioux Lookout southesat of North Platte.
Thanks for the tip! It sounds lovely. I've seen the Sand Hills and the grasses in South Dakota, Wyoming and Colorado. They're more western. It's the tall grass prairie that's on my bucket list.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Central Nebraska
553 posts, read 593,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
Thanks for the tip! It sounds lovely. I've seen the Sand Hills and the grasses in South Dakota, Wyoming and Colorado. They're more western. It's the tall grass prairie that's on my bucket list.
There are only a few small patches of long-grass prairie left. That's because where grass grows corn and wheat can grow and where buffalo graze cattle can graze and people want to preserve trees rather than grass. You might want to check with a State's Parks Department or a State University as one of their professors will know every patch of prairie public or private in the state. Mostly you'll be looking at Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri.
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