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Old 01-08-2008, 06:11 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by LordBalforThis only works when both parties realise that you cannot truly win a war, let alone a nuclear war.
As soon one of the combatants starts to believe that he has nothing to lose nuclear weapons only become a liability.
And when exactly has that happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
All true, but if the westerners had done business with Japan on their own terms, like the Dutch and the Portuguese had done, they'd probably would still be under the illusion that sovereignty meant something. Japan became to fear the west because they had brutally shattered their illusion of their 'superiority' and / or sovereignty with their use of western technological superior weaponry.
No Way!

Japan didn't "fear" the West. In WW I they were ALLIED with the West. Their attack on the US and the other Western Allies was for one reason and one reason only - The Japanese wanted an empire of their own and the West was in the way. They wanted something so they took it - in the time-honored way bullies always have. Pure and simple.

Ken
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 15,257,625 times
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Originally Posted by Reactionary
Quote:
How many tens of thousands of Dutchmen did the Japanese kill? Or did those colonialists deserve it?
LoL if the Dutch weren't in Indonesia they would have 0 victims.
I hope this answer is 'right' enough for ya.
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:17 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Reactionary LoL if the Dutch weren't in Indonesia they would have 0 victims.
I hope this answer is 'right' enough for ya.
Agreed. the Dutch had no business being there - they had taken advantages of the weaker natives and conquered it. I certainly wouldn't excuse that...

... but then again the Japanese had no business being there either (and it wasn't just the Dutch that suffered as a result). The native people there, as elsewhere, were brutalized by the Japanese conquerors (much more so than by the Dutch).

One crime doesn't excuse another. The Japanese conquest was WRONG, period. Trying to somehow shift the blame onto previous wrongdoers is just plane lame.

Ken

Last edited by LordBalfor; 01-08-2008 at 07:44 PM..
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by LordBalfor
Quote:
The Japanese wanted an empire of their own and the West was in the way. They wanted something so they took it - in the time-honored way bullies always have. Pure and simple.
True, but without western technology it would have been next to impossible. I can't fault Japan for using the enemies' technology to further their own goals.
Which nation hasn't?

Quote:
And when exactly has that happened?
Originally Posted by sponger42
Quote:
I strongly disagree. I think it is only the MAD doctrine that prevented WWIII between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.
Yes well, apparently I am not that optimistic about the human race and nuclear weapons, or that cooler heads will always prevail.

Originally Posted by LordBalfor
Quote:
... but then again the Japanese had no business being there either (and it wasn't just the Dutch that suffered as a result). The native people there, as elsewhere, were brutalized by the Japanese conquerors (much more so than by the Dutch).

One crime doesn't excuse another. The Japanese conquest was WRONG period. Trying to somehow shift the blame onto previous wrongdoers is just plane lame.
I'm not trying to make up excuses for the Japanese, but I can't blame the Indonesians for collaborating with the Japanese to rid themselves of the Dutch colonials either, even when my own grandfather fought in the Dutch Colonial army and had to fight his own countrymen.

Last edited by Tricky D; 01-08-2008 at 06:40 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:43 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by LordBalforTrue, but without western technology it would have been next to impossible. I can't fault Japan for using the enemies' technology to further their own goals.
Which nation hasn't?
So now it's the Western technology that's to blame?
Well I for one am not blaming the technology. The blame falls squarely on those who used it - in this case, clearly the Japanese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I'm not trying to make up excuses for the Japanese, but I can't blame the Indonesians for collaborating with the Japanese to rid themselves of the Dutch colonials either, even when my own grandfather fought in the Dutch Colonial army and had to fight his own countrymen.
I don't blame the Indonesians who may have welcomed the Japanese at first either. They were certainly happy to get rid of their old European masters - at least until they realized their new Japanese master were far worse.

It is of course no surprise that postwar there were strong independence movements throughout the region. The US had already promised independence to the Phillipines but the European colonial powers had no such intentions. The native peoples however - having found that the Europeans had been unable to protect them from the Japanese - were of course not exactly excited to exchange the newly-thrown off Japanese yoke for the old European ones. In fact, along with the rise of the US and USSR, the rise of the 3rd World is one of the most significant changes to come out of WW II. It's interesting to note that in the 3rd world their view of the two World Wars is quite a bit different from the view in the US and Europe. They tend to view the two World Wars as a single (although 2-part) event and that happened is "the European Powers, having conquered the world, then squabbled among themselves as to how to divide it up". This view, while far from complete, is not entirely incorrect (particularly where it involves WW I).

Ken
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
I would not suggest that the brutality of Japanese invasion and occupation in IndoChina is a fair justification for the slaughter of Japanese civilians.


.
No the bombing of Pearl Harbor was, We haven't fought a war right since WWII. War is total war. Hate your enemy and destroy him, or don't fight. If the President isn't wiling to stand up and say " Yes I ordered the bombing of XYZ city, and I'd do it again tommorow if I thought it would save 1 American life" then don't go to war..... Fight hard with everything you have destroy your enemy and go home...
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:54 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by LordBalfor
Quote:
So now it's the Western technology that's to blame?
Well I for one am not blaming the technology. The blame falls squarely on those who used it - in this case, clearly the Japanese.
No, I am not blaming anyone. In a sense I admire the Japanese for bridging a large technological gap in just a century. They transformed themselves from a 'backwards' medieval agricultural society into a modern-day technological marvel. They not only copied western technology, but improved it.
It is just my personal opinion that modern technology brings out the worst in humanity. I still regard humanity like their prehistoric ancestor, except now he is armed with a nuclear device instead of a club or spear.

Japan is also the first non-western army who beat a western army at their own game. Before their defeat the Japanese were the first non-western army to defeat a western army at the battle of Tsushima (May 27-28, 1905). Although the Japanese and the Russian fleet fought with the same level of weaponry, the Japanese were able to crush the Russians because they figured out to better utilize their widely available tool or weapon. I guess you could say that they were more creative and flexible than the Russians.
The Japanese were aware that technological advance will not change the essential nature of war. Fighting will always be a bloody business subject to chance and uncertainty in which the will of one nation (or sub-national group) will be pitted against another and the winner will be the one that can inflict more punishment and absorb more punishment than the other side. Since the Japanese did not know the meaning of surrender, only an atom bomb could defeat them.

I'm also of the opinion that in a war it is not the soldier who kills, but the politicians. The difference is that only soldiers experience how bloody and dirty a war truly is, while politicians can sleep like babies because they can deny the blood on their hands. Most war veterans cannot deny the fact that a war is a horrible experience, while politicians can fool themselves into believing that there is such a thing as a 'clean' war when you only use 'surgical' strikes. Modern technology only enforces this illusion with their 'smart' bombs and other technological gadgetry.
Now any fool can start WWIII, he only needs 1 atom bomb and detonate it in a nation which has nuclear weapons. Judging 9/11 the nuclear terrorist would have that nation in such frenzy that they are willing to strike their ‘enemy’, even when the enemy has no home base. Nowadays it is not an eye for an eye anymore, but total annihilation, which with our modern technology is easily possible.

Last edited by Tricky D; 01-09-2008 at 03:47 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:45 AM
 
12,787 posts, read 18,620,562 times
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Quote:
Who started the European (western) expansion in Asia?
Not the Japanese.
But it didn't took the Japanese a long time to realise that if they would allow themselves to be overrun by the westerners they eventually would turn into another China (Asia's poor sick man, because of the opium which the Brits forced into trading with them).
That is patently false. The Japanese justified their agression by saying they were chasing the Europeans out, including your people of Indonesia. Soon enough though the locals realized the Co-Prosperity Sphere was shackles of a different colour.

Quote:
Anywayz, if America never had forced itself on Japanese soil and strong-armed Japan into trading with them, I doubt they would ever have felt the need to attack Pearl Harbour. I can't blame the Japanese for believing that westerners truly are barbarians who’ll say anything just to get whatever they want.
I think you are making this up for a laugh, but I will bite anyway. Japan attacked Pearl Harbour in a vain attempt to knock the USA to the sidelines and allow them world dominance, in the Pacific at least. All educated people know that.

Anyway, as I said, I think you are just this saying to get a rise. Unless your defense of fascism is genuine.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:41 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Moth
Quote:
including your people of Indonesia.
True, my people are Indonesians but I do not consider myself Indonesian or Dutch. I don't believe in nationality or race. Nor do I believe that the Japanese were more fanatic or cruel than the typical American soldier. In a war you'll just do (practically) anything to win or survive.
My grandfather is a Christian so it was only natural that he fought with the Dutch Christian soldiers against the Japanese 'heathen'.

Quote:
The Japanese justified their agression by saying they were chasing the Europeans out, including your people of Indonesia.
The non-Christian side of my Indonesian family fought with the Japanese under the banner 'Asia for the Asians'. I see no false claim here.
The fact that my grandfather was betrayed by his own family to the Japanese only makes it more tragic. But wars do more than just simply kill people, they tear families apart. Luckily my grandfather could forgive those who betrayed him.
I'm just not sure that I as an individual could do the same as he.
The more I trust people, the greater the betrayal.

Quote:
Unless your defense of fascism is genuine.
I do not defend fascism at all. I only appreciate an 'honest' fascist over one who pretends that he is not one.
I mean the Europeans are hardly innocent or true to their word. If not for the guerrilla war in Indonesia right after WWII the Dutch queen and her government would never have given up Indonesia as a Dutch colony.
If I'm not mistaken this sparked the war in Korea. The Dutch fought a jungle guerrilla warfare long before you Americans fought yours in Korea or Vietnam.
I am no expert in history; I just wanted to know and understand why my family could become so divided.
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
I mean the Europeans are hardly innocent or true to their word
.

Quite true, but we are talking about Imperial Japan.

Quote:
If not for the guerrilla war in Indonesia right after WWII the Dutch queen and her government would never have given up Indonesia as a Dutch colony.
Oh, I do not know about that. The USA told Holland they would not get any Marshall Plan money if they did not decolonialize.


Quote:
If I'm not mistaken this sparked the war in Korea.
You are mistaken. The war in Korea was sparked by the North invading the South.

Quote:
The Dutch fought a jungle guerrilla warfare long before you Americans fought yours in Korea or Vietnam.
Actually we had already fought one in the Philippines. Korea was not a jungle war- it gets quite cold there.
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