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Old 01-26-2008, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 43,221,985 times
Reputation: 10990

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
US control of Germany was short-lived and relatively benign. We rebuilt the country and gave control back to the locals.

I know, I lived in Germany for 6 years.

Ken
It's still an occupied country. How much "autonomy" do you think we'd have if foreign soldiers were garrisoned here?
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Old 01-27-2008, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
1,164 posts, read 3,398,271 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
We forced their hand by refusing them access to their oil reserves. Plus, Japan's Naval Academy had the plan to attack Pearl Harbor for about ten years before using it. When they did attack, and were picked up on radar, the operators were told to ignore what they saw. Roosevelt wanted to kick America's isolationists right in the seat of the pants. It was planned that way.
Our government would lie to us????? The same government who late said we needed to be in Korea and South Viet Nam?
I have always felt that Yamamoto knew he had been sucked in when the aircraft carriers were out on maneuvers. Billy Mitchell had proven that the carriers would win the next war and they did. What was sunk at Pearl was antiquated junk and much of that was salvaged. If the Japs had sent another wave of bombers and taken out the repair facilities and oil dumps they would have really put the hurts on us. They didn't send another wave because they didn't know where the American carriers were (thank God).
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:48 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 49,276,262 times
Reputation: 46331
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
We forced their hand by refusing them access to their oil reserves. Plus, Japan's Naval Academy had the plan to attack Pearl Harbor for about ten years before using it. When they did attack, and were picked up on radar, the operators were told to ignore what they saw. Roosevelt wanted to kick America's isolationists right in the seat of the pants. It was planned that way.
There's a huge problem with that loopy theory of yours. If we had known about the imminent Japanese attack, then we wouldn't have allowed the bulk of our capital ships in our fleet to be smashed while they were sitting in harbor.

Instead, we would have quietly deployed the fleet, aircraft carriers included, waited for the first wave of Japanese bombers to cross into American airspace, and then hammered the Japanese fleet.

The political effect would have been identical: An unprovoked Japanese attack on American territory. Under that scenario, however, the American fleet would have been able to stop Japanese aggression in the Eastern Pacific, rather than lie smoldering on the bottom of Pearl Harbor. That way, we wouldn't have lost the Philippines, Guam, the Dutch East Indies, or Singapore along the way.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 24,107,119 times
Reputation: 7583
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
There's a huge problem with that loopy theory of yours. If we had known about the imminent Japanese attack, then we wouldn't have allowed the bulk of our capital ships in our fleet to be smashed while they were sitting in harbor.

Instead, we would have quietly deployed the fleet, aircraft carriers included, waited for the first wave of Japanese bombers to cross into American airspace, and then hammered the Japanese fleet.

The political effect would have been identical: An unprovoked Japanese attack on American territory. Under that scenario, however, the American fleet would have been able to stop Japanese aggression in the Eastern Pacific, rather than lie smoldering on the bottom of Pearl Harbor. That way, we wouldn't have lost the Philippines, Guam, the Dutch East Indies, or Singapore along the way.
Agreed.

Ken
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Old 01-27-2008, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,141 posts, read 7,938,524 times
Reputation: 6302
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
There's a huge problem with that loopy theory of yours. If we had known about the imminent Japanese attack, then we wouldn't have allowed the bulk of our capital ships in our fleet to be smashed while they were sitting in harbor.

Instead, we would have quietly deployed the fleet, aircraft carriers included, waited for the first wave of Japanese bombers to cross into American airspace, and then hammered the Japanese fleet.

The political effect would have been identical: An unprovoked Japanese attack on American territory. Under that scenario, however, the American fleet would have been able to stop Japanese aggression in the Eastern Pacific, rather than lie smoldering on the bottom of Pearl Harbor. That way, we wouldn't have lost the Philippines, Guam, the Dutch East Indies, or Singapore along the way.
There was a movie from the early 80's called "The Final Countdown" it's a fantasy/sci-fi movie where the Modern Nuclear Carrier USS Nimitz is sent back to December 6th 1941. Kirk Douglas is the Skipper of the Nimitz and his problem is, knowing whats going to happen! He reasons that he can't strike first, and start the war, but he sure as hell can finish it, once Pearl is bombed.
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Old 01-27-2008, 04:52 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 49,276,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali BassMan View Post
There was a movie from the early 80's called "The Final Countdown" it's a fantasy/sci-fi movie where the Modern Nuclear Carrier USS Nimitz is sent back to December 6th 1941. Kirk Douglas is the Skipper of the Nimitz and his problem is, knowing whats going to happen! He reasons that he can't strike first, and start the war, but he sure as hell can finish it, once Pearl is bombed.
I remember that movie. It was a cheese festival. The only thing missing was the wine.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:41 AM
 
12,787 posts, read 18,650,432 times
Reputation: 6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
We forced their hand by refusing them access to their oil reserves. Plus, Japan's Naval Academy had the plan to attack Pearl Harbor for about ten years before using it. When they did attack, and were picked up on radar, the operators were told to ignore what they saw. Roosevelt wanted to kick America's isolationists right in the seat of the pants. It was planned that way.
We embargoed them as they were rampaging and slaughtering their way through China. Certainly a moral position to take, no?

As for the radar, a group of American B-17s was landing at nearly the same time that the Japanese planes were coming in to attack. They were told to ignore the radar as it was thought they were the B-17s. An honest though deadly mistake.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:43 AM
 
12,787 posts, read 18,650,432 times
Reputation: 6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
It's still an occupied country. How much "autonomy" do you think we'd have if foreign soldiers were garrisoned here?
As much as a Status of Forces agreement would allow. That is what regulates American forces in Germany and other places. The Germans can kick us out anytime they like as has France, Libya, Thailand and the Philippines.
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Old 01-31-2008, 04:33 PM
 
61 posts, read 238,453 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by questioner2 View Post
I have always wondered what would have happened in WW2 if we did not have nukes and there was no bombing of those two Japanese Cities. I suspect that the battle of the Japanese Mainland (including Tokyo) would have killed more people in the long run and the war would have gone on for many years. I understand that even kids as young as 7 were expected to fight against the Americans. Any theories?

Your almost right, no one had invaded Japan and took control in the entire history of the country. The math folks and war folks said the death toll US/Japan military and Japanese civilian would top all others.
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Old 01-31-2008, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 43,221,985 times
Reputation: 10990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickery View Post
Your almost right, no one had invaded Japan and took control in the entire history of the country. The math folks and war folks said the death toll US/Japan military and Japanese civilian would top all others.
The Japanese were starving at home already. The war had taken its toll. There would have never been a need to invade mainland Japan.
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