Do you think that the Allies were responsible for World War II?
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I think if Germany wouldn't have started WW1 you'd have an argument. But they did and you don't. Starting a second war because you lost the previous one you started isn't someone else's doing.
There's no right or wrong. This is a historical debate, so its always open for discussion.
no but i think the allies were responsible for huge amount of crimes. they never apologized for hiroshima for example and many cases of rapes. This is interesting speech by hitler too:
Hitler would not have been able to rise to power in Germany if not for the harsh and unfair terms imposed by the Western Allies in the Treaty of Versailles.
Fascism would perhaps not have gained much momentum in Italy if the Allies did not renege on their promise of all the territorial gains that Italy would receive for intervention in the First World War on their side.
Japan would not have headed down the path of militarism if not for racist or discriminatory policies that the Western Allies adopted against the Japanese (i.e. strict US immigration policies, rejection of the Racial Equality Clause).
What do you think?
I did not vote in your poll because I believe the first two of your points are correct but not the third. Japan was going to need to be expansionist having nothing to do with US immigration. But take that off the table I would have voted yes.
French interest and perhaps some British to extract land, resources, and reparations overdid the German ability to tolerate.
no but i think the allies were responsible for huge amount of crimes. they never apologized for hiroshima for example and many cases of rapes. This is interesting speech by hitler too:
Oh, good grief. Not the tired Hiroshima argument again.
Let me see if I can sum the argument up: An atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima was bad because, ultimately, somewhere around 150,000 people died. So why is Hiroshima morally objectionable but Dresden or Nanking is not?
Or, let's look at it another way. In the strategically-essential Battle of Okinawa, 110,000 Japanese soldiers died, along with 40,000-150,000 civilians (Estimates vary). Even at the lower end of the scale, this battle fought with bullets and artillery shells constitutes almost certainly more casualties than were suffered in the bombing of Hiroshima.
Personally, as the son of a soldier in World War II, I am glad we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan rather than invade, ending the war months or years earlier. The casualties, both among soldiers and civilians, would have been horrific otherwise. And, had we decided to starve out the Japanese instead, the resulting famine would have been catastrophic, too. What's more, large portions of the Chinese mainland continued to be occupied by the Japanese. What would the civilian toll been there?
As far as the rape comment goes, the United States reacted rather swiftly to incidents of it, executing soldiers found guilty of the behavior. To be sure, those happened and were absolutely regrettable. But given the behavior of the Germans and Japanese -- not to mention the Russians -- who considered rape to be part of the spoils of war, there is simply no equivalency.
That's mainly because China is still communist and authoritarian. Imperial Japan in the 1920s was, on the other hand, democratic so America and Britain did not have much reason to fear rising Japanese power (except for the 'Yellow Peril').
If one wants to consider the Taisho Democracy to be a "democratic government" in the sense you are using the term. Outside of the brief period of the Taisho Democracy when Japan became more liberalized, Imperial Japan in the Meiji era was far more an oligarchy than anything resembling a democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by euro123
no but i think the allies were responsible for huge amount of crimes. they never apologized for hiroshima for example and many cases of rapes. This is interesting speech by hitler too:
No need to apologize for Hiroshima or anything else. Of course, when one wants to make a point, quoting one of the most genocidal madmen of the 20th century is a great way to do it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldnorthstate
I did not vote in your poll because I believe the first two of your points are correct but not the third. Japan was going to need to be expansionist having nothing to do with US immigration. But take that off the table I would have voted yes.
French interest and perhaps some British to extract land, resources, and reparations overdid the German ability to tolerate.
Agreed that the conflict between Japan and the west had nothing to do with US immigration policy.
To the second point...no. The mistake was ultimately in not extracting and enforcing a more thorough victory over Germany. Versailles was not a crippling instrument, just a "cause celebre" for the Germans to rail on about.
You know if we look back at the Versailles period in hindsight it becomes very evident that the winning powers were ultimately not very good in structuring national self-determination moves in the European nation states that were 'losers' in the war. With Versailles the old national political structures were removed by the victors and population demographics within geographies was upended. Ironic in the end that a 'peace' conference led ultimately to war years later stoked up by an angry Germany. All in all the Allies did build a building that unfortunately opened it up to a German arsonist. They at the time had no idea that there was a budding pyromaniac in the wings.
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