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Old 04-24-2021, 05:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Of the ebb and flow, I presume that many shifted sides as more areas came under Patriot control. Being a patriot in New York City probably took courage much before 1783. Being a Loyalist in Boston much after 1775 was probably not a great idea.
Mather Byles was a Boston Loyalist whom I learned about recently while looking into the topic of loyalists who emigrated from the newly formed United States after the American Revolutionary War was over. Byles was a descendent of the families of Mather and Cotton, which included the Puritan clergymen Richard Mather, Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, and John Cotton. Byles in his own right was a high ranking member of the clergy, known for his sermons, his scholarship, and for his ready wit.

Byles was a staunch and outspoken loyalist during the debates on resistance and on revolution against the British Crown. He remained in Boston in 1777 after British forces evacuated and was arrested, tried, and convicted by local authorities and sentenced to deportation. When it turned out not to be practical for him to be deported, his sentence was changed to house arrest (which didn't actually last long).

Mather Byles stuck in my mind because of two quotes. When he was under house arrest, a guard was posted at his front door to ensure that he not leave - Byles referred to the sentry as his "Observe-a-Tory".

The second quote is probably familiar to most - "Which is better - to be ruled by one tyrant three thousand miles away or three thousand tyrants one mile away?" A form of this quote was used by Mel Gibson's character in the movie The Patriot.

Byles never emigrated - he lived the rest of his life in Boston, dying on July 5, 1788 at the age of 82. I wonder if he held out one more day so that he would not have expired on the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence?
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Old 04-24-2021, 11:56 AM
 
Location: New York Area
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Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Byles never emigrated - he lived the rest of his life in Boston, dying on July 5, 1788 at the age of 82. I wonder if he held out one more day so that he would not have expired on the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence?
I don't know if July 4 had yet coalesced as Independence Day. The Declaration was actually signed over a period of several days, signature in counterparts and e-signature not yet being a thing.
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Old 04-24-2021, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I don't know if July 4 had yet coalesced as Independence Day. The Declaration was actually signed over a period of several days, signature in counterparts and e-signature not yet being a thing.
Interesting point!

On July 3rd, 1776, John Adams wrote to his wife that:
Quote:
The second day of July 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever more.
So Americans celebrate Independence Day on July 4th, because that's what it said on the top of the Declaration of Independence (In Congress July 4, 1776...), and not on the day that the Continental Congress actually voted to approve a resolution of independence. John Adams perhaps overestimated his fellow citizens' understanding of governmental procedures and legalities.

But getting back to the passing of Mather Byles on July 5th, 1788...

It wasn't yet a national holiday, but in 1781 the state legislature of Massachusetts recognized July 4th as a day of celebration. So I'm going to say that Mather Byles, living in Boston, probably would have been listening to Independence Day festivities on the day before he died.
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Old 04-24-2021, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
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Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
I would suggest that the break down was as follows.....

A third were Loyalists, a third were rebels, and a third just wanted to be "left alone ".

Bear in mind that in some cases, the use of physical violence was used, to force out those who were not in favour of rebellion. Having your farm burned down, or your livestock killed was not at all uncommon.

United Empire Loyalists, who fled to Upper or Lower Canada, were numbered in the thousands, and even today, some descendants still use the honorific UEL after their names, to remind others of their family history. Free land grants, patronage appointments, and financial support were all offered to the UEL families, by the British Government .

Jim B. In Toronto.
One of my great great grandfathers fled to Canada during the American Revolution. He would have been a German descendant, whose father or grandfather originally settled in NY by permission of the King of England. About a century later one of his descendants crossed the border into the US and stayed. I imagine it was a porous border then.
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Old 04-24-2021, 02:28 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Originally Posted by silibran View Post
One of my great great grandfathers fled to Canada during the American Revolution. He would have been a German descendant, whose father or grandfather originally settled in NY by permission of the King of England. About a century later one of his descendants crossed the border into the US and stayed. I imagine it was a porous border then.
Very porous. One side of my family landed in Halifax, moved to Montreal and thence to Yonkers, New York in 1896 by way of Grand Central Terminal. I doubt there was much paperwork involved beyond an online AMTRAK ticket.
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Old 04-24-2021, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Interesting point!

On July 3rd, 1776, John Adams wrote to his wife that:


So Americans celebrate Independence Day on July 4th, because that's what it said on the top of the Declaration of Independence (In Congress July 4, 1776...), and not on the day that the Continental Congress actually voted to approve a resolution of independence. John Adams perhaps overestimated his fellow citizens' understanding of governmental procedures and legalities.

But getting back to the passing of Mather Byles on July 5th, 1788...

It wasn't yet a national holiday, but in 1781 the state legislature of Massachusetts recognized July 4th as a day of celebration. So I'm going to say that Mather Byles, living in Boston, probably would have been listening to Independence Day festivities on the day before he died.
July 4, gets even more complex...years after the Revolution, some of the Founders were trying to remember exactly what happened on July 4. Not everyone who signed it was there on that date and on some original copies the signatures are different.

https://allthingsliberty.com/2014/07...ourth-of-july/

https://allthingsliberty.com/2017/10...ricks-history/
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Old 04-24-2021, 05:50 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Originally Posted by webster View Post
July 4, gets even more complex...years after the Revolution, some of the Founders were trying to remember exactly what happened on July 4. Not everyone who signed it was there on that date and on some original copies the signatures are different.

https://allthingsliberty.com/2014/07...ourth-of-july/

https://allthingsliberty.com/2017/10...ricks-history/
Possibly remote signatures?
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Old 04-24-2021, 05:54 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Very porous. One side of my family landed in Halifax, moved to Montreal and thence to Yonkers, New York in 1896 by way of Grand Central Terminal. I doubt there was much paperwork involved beyond an online AMTRAK ticket.
How did your folks get an online AMTRAK ticket in 1896?
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Old 04-24-2021, 08:45 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Very porous. One side of my family landed in Halifax, moved to Montreal and thence to Yonkers, New York in 1896 by way of Grand Central Terminal. I doubt there was much paperwork involved beyond an online AMTRAK ticket.
How did your folks get an online AMTRAK ticket in 1896?
Ever see the movie Back to the Future? There's your answer. And they logged onto www.amtrak.com.
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Old 04-25-2021, 04:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Possibly remote signatures?
Alas, they did not have the "polygraph" machine at the signing:

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ions/polygraph
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