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You know it surely indicates that those attitudes and behavior are deeply submerged in their psyches and follow from the quest through the centuries of fighting for bits and large tracts of territory. Each has won at one time or another and each has lost land after those interminable wars. And in each case terrible enmities between them were created.
In light of what Putin accomplished in the Crimea which arguably looks in keeping with that goal of territorial expansion it is a change in that it was done without much violence relatively speaking. On the other hand it hasn't done anything to affect the enmity. In fact it has increased it. Strange how various actions always awaken the bad sleeping dogs.
You know the maps sort of show a little by little manifestation of 'Ukraine' coming into existence like the American colonies to Britain during latter part of the 18th. Kind of the same history if you ask me.
Arguably Russia when looking at over at 'Ukraine' simply took its resources back home , kept enough watch over the place to make sure it had room to maneuver and eventually had enough of 'independent' Ukrainian antics and occupied part of the place with fighters. I'll also add being very very belligerent 'guests' making themselves very unwelcome in the country. That would certainly bring a kind of air in called 'revolution'.
Not saying it happens all the time but the changing contours of maps and countries through the centuries does indicate that it perhaps shows the 'wising up' of countries or 'areas' to its previous masters who simply take more than they give. Not a good combination.
"Support for Ukrainian sovereignty has become an important component of Polish foreign policy.[1] Poland strongly supported the peaceful and democratic resolution of the 2004 Orange Revolution in Ukraine, and has backed NATO-Ukraine cooperation (such as the Lithuanian–Polish–Ukrainian Brigade), as well as Ukraine's efforts to join the European Union.[1][7]"
This is more "Poland looking out for Poland" than "Poland looking out for US interests". The US has minor trade ties with Poland and neglegable ties with Ukraine. It's in the US's best interest that Ukraine is NOT a part of the EU, and isn't a part of NATO. The EU thing is a minor bit to the US; Obama's punting to Merkel on the issue is proof enough of that. We really don't have any skin the the game.
NATO on the other hand: Ukraine joining NATO is not in Russia's interest, and it certainly isn't in the US or the rest of NATO's interest either. Ukraine is a buffer state, just like Belarus. Per the treaty, an attack on one is an attack on all, and if Estonia is attacked by Russia, then all of NATO gets pulled into a war they don't have any interest in. It's clear when you look at a map, that there is a concerted effort made to minimize direct NATO-Russia borders:
The only reason the baltic states are part of NATO is due to some rather interesting diplomacy.
No one, Russia or NATO, wants a direct border conflict that could escalate.
Re: 'No one, Russia or NATO, wants a direct border conflict that could escalate'
But I would simply suggest that the Russia probably wouldn't mind destabilization of the Baltics where they could argue and follow the same line as they've done in the Crimea and what they are doing now in southeast Ukraine. Fact is they probably feel they have the 'right' now to go into any of the Baltic states if 'Russian' interests are at stake. Frankly if things got to that point I'd say it would be illogical for Russia not to do anything considering what they've done already.
This is more "Poland looking out for Poland" than "Poland looking out for US interests".
Right. And the best way for Poland to "look out for Poland" is to get "big guys" involved in her schemes, since on its own Poland doesn't have a chance to stand up to Russia, although it never buried its own imperial aspirations. Poland needs Ukraine in her sphere of influence, because historically that's what was making Poland having more weight on international scene. And "weight"- that's what Poland always wanted and couldn't get for long time. Knowing her current situation in EU ( where Poles are looked down upon,) it sure sees the opportunity of luring Ukraine in her sphere of influence and thus increasing its importance.
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The US has minor trade ties with Poland and neglegable ties with Ukraine.
"Trade ties" are not what's important in this case, ( when it comes to Poland) but an eager anti-Russian political ally is what counts here. I don't believe that one of the most notorious anti-Russian advisers whispering to US government how to do away with Russia happen to be a Pole by accident.
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It's in the US's best interest that Ukraine is NOT a part of the EU, and isn't a part of NATO.
Actually it's true, but SOME in the US government don't understand it. They strive for world domination and Russia is clearly on their way, messing up their cards.
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The EU thing is a minor bit to the US; Obama's punting to Merkel on the issue is proof enough of that. We really don't have any skin the the game.
That's an incorrect assessment sorry to say; EUs countries are part of NATO; (Western) Europe is the US ally in world affairs, and Russia holds EU in its grip for economic reasons, which transfers into Politics. The US gov. would like to change this situation I believe.
The whole fracking thing initiated in Ukraine and recent involvement of Biden's son into Ukraine's gas industry are quite telling developments in this respect.
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NATO on the other hand: Ukraine joining NATO is not in Russia's interest, and it certainly isn't in the US or the rest of NATO's interest either. Ukraine is a buffer state, just like Belarus.
And that's how it should stay, if we are talking common sense, but common sense doesn't always prevail, unfortunately.
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Per the treaty, an attack on one is an attack on all, and if Estonia is attacked by Russia,
Why would Russia want to attack Estonia? What would be the practical purpose of it?
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then all of NATO gets pulled into a war they don't have any interest in. It's clear when you look at a map, that there is a concerted effort made to minimize direct NATO-Russia borders:
There probably WAS such effort made, but I believe that this approach changed after Syria events.
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The only reason the baltic states are part of NATO is due to some rather interesting diplomacy.
Please elaborate ( about this rather "interesting diplomacy," because may be I am missing something.)
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No one, Russia or NATO, wants a direct border conflict that could escalate.
We see quite the opposite currently in Ukraine I believe, with American troops arriving to train Ukrainian National Guard, and Eastern Ukraine being bombed yet again.
Re: 'No one, Russia or NATO, wants a direct border conflict that could escalate'
But I would simply suggest that the Russia probably wouldn't mind destabilization of the Baltics where they could argue and follow the same line as they've done in the Crimea and what they are doing now in southeast Ukraine. Fact is they probably feel they have the 'right' now to go into any of the Baltic states if 'Russian' interests are at stake. Frankly if things got to that point I'd say it would be illogical for Russia not to do anything considering what they've done already.
Travric, you still didn't explain to me what would be a purpose for Putin "to destabilize Baltics?"
Crimea had military base hosting Russian fleet for centuries - that's given; East Ukraine is tied to Russia by economy plus language & cultural ties; what's in the Baltics?
Again, may be I am missing something, so please make your case.
Last edited by erasure; 05-14-2015 at 11:26 PM..
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