Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Africa is broader than just Egypt. The level of civilization on the African continent varied for different peoples and regions. Many Africans didn't use or have writing before European contact. They were oral people. So much of Africa wasn't like Egypt.
Southern Africa has about as much to do with Egypt as China does regardless if they are on the same continent.
Southern Africa has about as much to do with Egypt as China does regardless if they are on the same continent.
Just like ancient Greece had ZERO to do with the rest of Europe at the time , yet all Europeans try to claim credit for it's accomplishments. Hell, Greeks weren't even considered WHITE until the 1920's.
IMO history and especially the history of "civilization" is a universal, human story not to be confined to a particular geographic area and I especially feel this in regards to ancient history which cannot be fully substantiated and is subject to interpretation based on ancient artifacts. It is fascinating to find and examine these artifacts but it is more important to realize they are a part of the human story and not necessarily a story only of a particular area of where they were found.
The human story is one of serial conflict, people struggling to survive and prevail, as tribes, as nations, as civilizations. That survival/prosperity most frequently had to come at the expense of another group, and we appear hard wired to accept the necessities involved.
The same impulse to prevail which fueled the Oooga tribe vs the Booga tribe, is the driving force responsible for the afrocentrist vs eurocentrist advocates. The human story has been, and still is, home team uber alles.
I did but the "discoveries" posted by the op are too easy too refute
No, there is no refuting them. These are your facts. You can learn them or choose to ignore them, but they are the reality that we have one way or the other:
Oldest writing/proto writing in the world: Vinca Script (used by many Old European cultures)
Oldest gold working: Varna graves
Oldest Copper working: Vinca and others
Extensive trade networks: vinca
Separation of trades: all of old Europe
Two story Houses: vinca
Urbanization: Vinca
Stone Walls: New find in Bulgaria, Sesklo, Dispilio
Evidence of iron Smelting: New find in Croatia
Solar/Calender knowledge: Gosseck Circle and related
Social stratification: Evidenced by Varna
Oldest Wheel: Vinca
Just like ancient Greece had ZERO to do with the rest of Europe at the time , yet all Europeans try to claim credit for it's accomplishments. Hell, Greeks weren't even considered WHITE until the 1920's.
Ignorant American racial classifications have nothing to do with Greece. Europeans typically have no interest in this sort of ridiculous pseudo taxonomy that's currently rampant in the USA. Americans of European descent are not European.
In case you didn't get it, the thread is explicitly tongue in cheek. What is FACTUAL is that European civilization is now know to be older, though the idea has not made it into the popular consiousness yet.
The idea that the Danube river valley must have influnced Egypt is a bit of a fun turnaround on Afro-loons endlessly repeating that Egypt must have influenced Egypt because it was older. That is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches
You haven't either bothered to research the facts posted in the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches
No, there is no refuting them. These are your facts. You can learn them or choose to ignore them, but they are the reality that we have one way or the other:
Oldest writing/proto writing in the world: Vinca Script (used by many Old European cultures)
Oldest gold working: Varna graves
Oldest Copper working: Vinca and others
Extensive trade networks: vinca
Separation of trades: all of old Europe
Two story Houses: vinca
Urbanization: Vinca
Stone Walls: New find in Bulgaria, Sesklo, Dispilio
Evidence of iron Smelting: New find in Croatia
Solar/Calender knowledge: Gosseck Circle and related
Social stratification: Evidenced by Varna
Oldest Wheel: Vinca
Will just note that many of your post above come off as Eurocentrist and that in many ways you aren't any better than the "afro-loons" that you disparage.
It seems that you are fascinated with proving that Europeans "created civilization" which is odd considering people can have different definitions of what constitutes "civilization" and also that as I stated earlier, the earth has cradled humans for tens of thousands of years. There is no possible way to know for certain who "invented" any of the things above due to time being so vast in the expanse of our existence and the fact that no one has dug up the entire earth and provided concrete evidence of who and what was "first."
All of these are educated guesses and not facts but you may not accept that as a "fact" and don't have to.
Will just note that many of your post above come off as Eurocentrist and that in many ways you aren't any better than the "afro-loons" that you disparage.
Explictly stating that a thread is tongue in cheek and citing facts are Eurocentric practices?
Sure. Whatever gets you through the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
It seems that you are fascinated with proving that Europeans "created civilization"
I find it almost incredible. I stated that the thread was tongue in cheek and you quoted the post. And yet you say that I am facinated with proving the Europeans created civlization.
Wow. Just wow. You don't understand satire.
The truth is that civlization does not have one source, as Afro-loons think. In fact, this thread was originally in response to a specific Afro-loon thread. Because civilization in europe is now known to be older, we used it as an opportunity to highlight some foolishness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
which is odd considering people can have different definitions of what constitutes "civilization"
Definitions of civilization differ only in that some have more or less categories. Writing, momumental architecture, social stratification, trade networks, crafts, etc.
The idea that civilization can't be defined is typical garbage leftist deconstructionist nonsense. It is abandoning the issue. You don't like the facts so you will not allow others to discuss it.
Too bad. You would do better educating yourself by researching the Danube river valley cultures rather than throwing a tantrum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
and also that as I stated earlier, the earth has cradled humans for tens of thousands of years. There is no possible way to know for certain who "invented" any of the things above due to time being so vast in the expanse of our existence and the fact that no one has dug up the entire earth and provided concrete evidence of who and what was "first."
Which shows an astonishing ignorance of how history is done. Historians go by current evidence. You want to keep matters permanently in the realm of conjecture. More deconstructionst nonense.
Too bad. We are going to do thing the right way here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
All of these are educated guesses and not facts but you may not accept that as a "fact" and don't have to.
These represent the facts of our current understanding based on evidence. By definition a scientific "fact" is subject to change based on new evidence. It doesnt' mean that we are not allowed to discuss it because no one is omiscient.
Really, you need to stop lecturing and start learning. Start with Vinca culture, and go from there.
LOL, that was a whole lot to respond to my measly 4 sentences.
I actually have read and heard about the Vinca culture (I read a book regarding the history of written language and their writing was discussed and have watched some documentaries where the culture was discussed, however, I make no claim to be an expert) but you seem overly obsessed with proving them to be the original culture of civilization and especially attempting to erase the African historical evidence of ancient Egypt in particular. Historians, per "current evidence" believe that ancient Egypt got an influence from Nubia and other societies south of Egypt, the cultures of present day Sudan (Kush/Cush and Nubia), and cultures in the Horn of Africa (Punt/Put) - Eritrea/Somalia/Ethiopia, etc, not the Vinca. I personally do believe that the Vinca culture heavily influenced Greek culture and society, primarily due to geographic location of both cultures/societies being relatively close in location. The book I read did state that Vinca culture stretched to parts of present day Greece. Maybe you can provide actual citations to reputable authors that propose that Vinca culture was a contributor to Egypt and then your claims/ideas can be taken seriously in this regard.
ETA: I'll also mention that you keep claiming things as "fact" yet earlier in the thread you and others even admitted that some of what you propose has not been "accepted" by "science" or historians. So I honestly don't get the reason for you believing that you have facts when no one is backing all your facts and they especially aren't backing that the vinca influenced Egyptian culture/society.
And you should take your own advice and stop throwing tantrums since I did say that you don't have to accept anyone's facts. Everything I wrote was an opinion and was based specifically on my opinion on you and your posts in the thread being an extremely Eurocentric view of history. You also don't have many sources to back up your claims, just copy/pasted information from a website it seems. You can find anything on the web to support whatever it is you believe.
This will be my last post in the thread so if you respond you can have the last word!
For starters the Egyptians were not black Africans anyway, not that the racist Afrocentrists would ever admit.
This is the Wikipedia article about the oldest known Egyptian mummies, that predate Dynastic Egypt by about a millennia. They lived over 5,000 years ago and are very well preserved.
Four mummies total. One of the male mummies has red hair, the female mummy has long brown hair. How many African blacks with red or long brown hair do you know of ?
LOL, that was a whole lot to respond to my measly 4 sentences.
I actually have read and heard about the Vinca culture (I read a book regarding the history of written language and their writing was discussed and have watched some documentaries where the culture was discussed, however, I make no claim to be an expert) but you seem overly obsessed with proving them to be the original culture of civilization and especially attempting to erase the African historical evidence of ancient Egypt in particular. !
Sweet Lord, is there something wrong with you?
This is a serious question. How many times does it have to be explained to you that the thread is tongue in cheek? This is beyond the fact that you don't understand satire,you just ignore direct posts so that you can keep crying.
Really man, you don't belong in any intellectual conversation, and mods, if you want to ding me down for this, PLEASE READ THROUGH THE THREAD. I have tried as hard as I can to let you in on the joke, even lettting you know that when this thread was made many moons ago, it was a satire of a SPECIFIC Afrocentric thread. What must I do to make you understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
Historians, per "current evidence" believe that ancient Egypt got an influence from Nubia
A) This is not the full truth. The societies that influenced Egypt were in the South, the Western desert, and in Asia.
B) But seriously, WHAT PART TO YOU NOT GET ABOUT TONGUE IN CHEEK? What part of SATIRE you you not comprehend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
and other societies south of Egypt,
And what societies would they be by name?
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
the cultures of present day Sudan (Kush/Cush and Nubia), and cultures in the Horn of Africa (Punt/Put) - Eritrea/Somalia/Ethiopia, etc,
Actually Punt is still semi-mythical. There is no known connection with the horn.
You don't seem to know about the Merimde, the Badari, which probably originated in the west, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
not the Vinca.
Dear god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
I personally do believe that the Vinca culture heavily influenced Greek culture and society, primarily due to geographic location of both cultures/societies being relatively close in location. The book I read did state that Vinca culture stretched to parts of present day Greece. Maybe you can provide actual citations to reputable authors that propose that Vinca culture was a contributor to Egypt and then your claims/ideas can be taken seriously in this regard.
Dear god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
ETA: I'll also mention that you keep claiming things as "fact" yet earlier in the thread you and others even admitted that some of what you propose has not been "accepted" by "science" or historians.
The "firsts" are factual, the part that is still not accepted is that there was a great, overarching culture of Old Europe. It is actually pretty obvious that there was, as there simply is no way that all of these micro cultures each was the first to some miletone independently. This can be seen merely as academic conservatism. Old Europe is still "new" in academic terms. They don't want to see the forest for the trees just yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
So I honestly don't get the reason for you believing that you have facts when no one is backing all your facts and they especially aren't backing that the vinca influenced Egyptian culture/society.
Dear god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
And you should take your own advice and stop throwing tantrums since I did say that you don't have to accept anyone's facts.
I am going to try this once again: you really have no understanding of satire. I am not going to say that you are making a fool of yourself, but a lot of other people are laughing at a joke that is going over your head, even after it has been explained to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
Everything I wrote was an opinion and was based specifically on my opinion on you and your posts in the thread being an extremely Eurocentric view of history. You also don't have many sources to back up your claims, just copy/pasted information from a website it seems. You can find anything on the web to support whatever it is you believe.
The sources are all in the original thread for all of the things that Old Europe was first in. I do not believe that you have ever researched Vinca, Varna, or anything that has to do with old Europe, or you would indeed know that the thread is based in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
This will be my last post in the thread so if you respond you can have the last word!
This is probably for the best.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
