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Old 02-25-2015, 03:53 PM
 
914 posts, read 764,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
No, there were coins of the emperors minted during their own reigns, which I think qualifies as being proof they were actual people.

Wrong! They used faces on coins, just like we do after their deaths therefore coins are heresay. Prove me wrong! and where are your sources?

I guess you think Mark Anthony and Alexander the Great were myths too. Prove they weren't!

You haven't even shown a coin! Show me a coin of Alexander the Great or Socrates. Prove ONE thing, unless they're myths too

And, you still haven't disproven my quotes. I guess Tacitus and Josephus were just hallucinating. lol
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:58 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 4,947,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenorSax83 View Post
I guess Tacitus and Josephus were just hallucinating. lol
They wrote their quotes generations after Jesus died. They got their information from Christians who believed in him. You're being silly.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:05 PM
 
914 posts, read 764,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
They wrote their quotes generations after Jesus died. They got their information from Christians who believed in him. You're being silly.
Look at the Date of the Quotes, look at the birth date of the Historians, they were contemporaries of the time. Josephus born AD 37, Tacitus born AD 56

I just can't take you seriously anymore. You have clearly offered nothing but argument for the sake of argument. I guess everybody who existed in ancient history was a myth and heresy. take care!
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:18 PM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,628 posts, read 15,580,631 times
Reputation: 10870
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenorSax83 View Post
Wrong! They used faces on coins, just like we do after their deaths therefore coins are heresay. Prove me wrong! and where are your sources?

I guess you think Mark Anthony and Alexander the Great were myths too. Prove they weren't!

You haven't even shown a coin! Show me a coin of Alexander the Great or Socrates. Prove ONE thing, unless they're myths too

And, you still haven't disproven my quotes. I guess Tacitus and Josephus were just hallucinating. lol
Not every country has the same tradition was waiting until somebody is dead before commemorating them on coin or currency. Britain's Queen Elizabeth II is an example. I've even seen her face on Canadian money. I think it was even more common in true monarchies.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:18 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 4,947,930 times
Reputation: 3666
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenorSax83 View Post
Look at the Date of the Quotes, look at the birth date of the Historians, they were contemporaries of the time. Josephus born AD 37, Tacitus born AD 56

I just can't take you seriously anymore. You have clearly offered nothing but argument for the sake of argument. I guess everybody who existed in ancient history was a myth and heresy. take care!
AD 37 and 56 are still after Jesus died. 56 is at least 2 decades after he died, which in those days was a long time. Calling them contemporaries is a stretch. It would be like saying I'm John Lennon's contemporary even though he died in 1980 and I was born in 1990.
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:08 PM
 
14,376 posts, read 18,320,068 times
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I suspect it is largely irrelevant if Jesus actually did exist or not. You could argue that a large percentage of historical figures never existed since there's not a ton of solid records from thousands of years ago. They didn't know about fingerprints or DNA evidence.

Robin Hood and King Arthur are believed to be composites of multiple people, according to some sources I have read - I have long suspected that Jesus was probably a similar type of figure - based on multiple people. Certainly the mythology surrounding him is nothing that wasn't seen before.

But the point is that people BELIEVED he existed, and that was what drove their actions. The point of whether he existed or not becomes largely irrelevant to what followed his death once you get 50 years or so out. It's a trivia question, not a real historical concern in the big picture. Yeah, if you could prove that he DIDN'T exist, you'd probably re-shape the entire way we look at Western civilization, but it's really hard to prove a negative. And proving he did exist, well, that's just as unlikely because he was a lower-class criminal - not the kind of person who would generally be the topic of relatively unbiased contemporaries.
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Old 02-25-2015, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
15,293 posts, read 17,624,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabear1972 View Post
What I think is most interesting about the Christ story is that there is a nearly identical story in Egyptian mythology - a messiah born of a virgin with godlike powers over life and death who died and rose again after 3 days. I'm not dissing Jesus, BTW - I think everything he said was spot on.
Don't confuse historicity with mythology. Yes, Christianity is a mash-up of other ancient religions. Anubis did the last judgment and anyone who failed died the second death. Heaven and hell were invented by the Zoroastrians, as was the god/devil light/dark dualism and angelic beings. A deified human and ascending into heaven is part of Greek mythology. Most of Christianity was invented by Paul the Pharisee (which is where resurrection came from), though the most useful feature, the baptism of repentance, was invented by his cousin John. It remains an outstanding tool for dealing with human guilt.

None of this has anything to do with the historicity of Jesus, who, by all accounts was a popular preacher but a political *******.
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Old 02-25-2015, 06:00 PM
 
914 posts, read 764,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
AD 37 and 56 are still after Jesus died. 56 is at least 2 decades after he died, which in those days was a long time. Calling them contemporaries is a stretch. It would be like saying I'm John Lennon's contemporary even though he died in 1980 and I was born in 1990.
Yet there have been no sources produced in this thread, to prove the existence of any other historical figure, besides the one I have provided. Either you don't want to put in the work to find them or you can't because they don't exist. I have produced more proof in this thread of a lowly shepherd than you have of a Caesar, a Greek General, or Socrates.

Forget about Jesus. Valsteele why do you believe Alexander or Socrates existed? Just answer that and provide one proof. No more words..proof
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:31 PM
 
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,056,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
What confuses me is why even secular historians generally believe in Jesus. I've studied the evidence of Jesus well and it is not strong. At all.
That's true of a lot of historical figures dude. It's not as if there were cameras back then. The written records weren't even that good, outside of a major city like Rome. And as I've said, Jesus of Nazereth, at the time, was not someone of any great importance. The importance was ascribed after his death.
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:42 PM
 
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,056,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
I suspect it is largely irrelevant if Jesus actually did exist or not.
Correct. The words ascribed to him and the religion based on those ideas are more important to history.

Quote:
You could argue that a large percentage of historical figures never existed since there's not a ton of solid records from thousands of years ago. They didn't know about fingerprints or DNA evidence.
Yep. In fact it is possible that his bones are in a vault somewhere of things that were dug up from some obscure place, but even if they are, how would you know they were his? Again, you don't have DNA to test. "Skeleton of John Doe 80,124" in some vault in the basement of the Louvre could be Jesus and how we would we know.

Quote:
But the point is that people BELIEVED he existed, and that was what drove their actions. The point of whether he existed or not becomes largely irrelevant to what followed his death once you get 50 years or so out. It's a trivia question, not a real historical concern in the big picture. Yeah, if you could prove that he DIDN'T exist, you'd probably re-shape the entire way we look at Western civilization, but it's really hard to prove a negative. And proving he did exist, well, that's just as unlikely because he was a lower-class criminal - not the kind of person who would generally be the topic of relatively unbiased contemporaries.
Exactly. Even if he didn't exist you're still left with a great work of literature, the Greek Gospel and the rest of the New Testament. You're still left with all the great things that were done the name of Jesus, and all the atrocities.

Somebody founded Christianity, and it had a profound effect on the world. Whether or not Jesus of Nazereth specifically existed may be lost to history but the effects of the concept of Jesus are still with us today.

Anyway, it is also true that we have just as much proof of Socrates as we do of Jesus, and no one doubts that there was a Socrates. At least, they don't doubt that there are books containing the philosophical positions of a man named Socrates. Just as there are books containing words supposedly uttered by Jesus of Nazereth.
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