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They sure used them differently didn't they? Definitely not offensively like Germany and the
US. With both the usual mandate was to have an 'attacking' frame of mind.
And as far as the command, they seemed to operate on wishful thinking at times especially after Midway. Just weren't sharp in their analyses of operations. When one watches Tora Tora Tora apparently in the planning on attacking Pearl it looks as if they they sure sweated the details. But after that quick victory and then experiencing Midway it would appear the Japanese naval command could have operated better. Something went awry in their battle preparations and eventually King and Nimitz et al licked them pretty good. The American command just seemed to be better.
Matsuoka was Imperial Japan's Foreign Minister in 1941. Neither the Army or the Navy had any interest in the attack on the USSR that he advocated, and within a month of Barbarossa being launched he was marginalized, out of office, and was no longer relevant in Japan.
With everything riding on Japan's quest to secure vital war materials in SE Asia, it simply made no sense whatsoever to attack the USSR in 1941. Going to war with the U.S., and attacking Pearl Harbor specifically, was a gamble and a long-shot, but at least there was a coherent logic behind it. Not so with the silly idea of attacking the USSR. As such, I doubt Stalin every lost much sleep over the extremely unlikely possibility.
Correct. Just look at the map - attacking the USSR meant - even in a very iffy case of initial success - advancing through thousands of miles of worst terrain in the world, without any major centers anywhere close, and the Siberian oil fields were not discovered until 1960s. There was simply no cheese in that mousetrap for the Japanese. Plus, their Army was weaker than their Navy, and their Army was up to their ears in China and didn't really have any meaningful resources to attack Siberia, and their Army already got their ass handed to them by the Soviets in 1938 and 1939, so they knew what they would have to deal with.
Not that they didn't realize that the US was just too much to take on, but at least with an initially successful Navy campaign there was a very slight chance that they could negotiate with Roosevelt from position of strength, and (speculation) have the oil embargo lifted in exchange for peace. Of course they grossly underestimated the outrage that Pearl Harbor caused at home.
And simply not waging a war in China or in the US was never an option. Army wanted the war in China, and wasn't shy about assassinating any politicians that did not support it. I think Japan was simply doomed from the start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by happygeek
They also quite frankly sucked at submarine warfare. Not necessarily because their equipment was inferior, they had the best torpedoes early in the war for example. Their command's idea of how to employ submarines was wrong.
There was no honor in sinking the lowly commercial freight steamers; there was much honor in sinking enemy warships. So the Japanese sub commanders threaded waters looking to pick a fight with US Navy ships and more or less ignored the supply lines; also, I believe at that time the US simply did not have major supply lines in Pacific, as opposed to Atlantic. The Japanese subs, especially by the end of the war, were better than anyone else's including the German U-boats, but they tried to use them against surface Navy and this was suicidal.
There was no honor in sinking the lowly commercial freight steamers; there was much honor in sinking enemy warships. So the Japanese sub commanders threaded waters looking to pick a fight with US Navy ships and more or less ignored the supply lines; also, I believe at that time the US simply did not have major supply lines in Pacific, as opposed to Atlantic. The Japanese subs, especially by the end of the war, were better than anyone else's including the German U-boats, but they tried to use them against surface Navy and this was suicidal.
Yep, that's exactly what I meant by their command employing them wrong. Submarines IMHO were kinda like the insurgents of naval warfare; they can occasionally get lucky and 'snipe' a battleship or aircraft carrier, but their main strength is in sinking all those supply ships that carry the oil and other things that those battleships and carriers need to operate.
The US on the other hand did to Japan what Germany had been trying to do to England: sink so much of their merchant shipping that they quite simply couldn't function logistically. It's kinda ironic that Japan began the war to get resources yet by the last 1 - 2 years of the war they could barely bring anything into the home islands.
Japan did quite a few things wrong tactically in WWII, not just strategically. There could be a whole other thread on how they did things like seeming to spend more time indoctrinating their soldiers than on actually training them, or focusing more on instilling a 'warrior spirit' than on actually developing decent small arms. Or how they didn't focus enough on training replacement carrier pilots or ...
The Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor was a huge blunder. The execution of the bombing was an even bigger blunder. If you haven't read Alan Zimms review of the failures of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, it well worth the read. Pearl Harbor | Facts Summary Information
The Japanese had their Aviation fuel, steel, and scrap iron cut off in September 1940. Not all oil was cut off, just that which was of military value. Later, in June to July 1941, Japan occupied Indochina for it's reserves. The USA, Britain, and the Netherlands, all froze Japanese assets which means they could not buy any of the materials they needed for their war machine. What they failed to realize is that the American people were isolationists, they did not want any part of the war, anywhere. Attacking Pearl Harbor changed their mind and Roosevelt got what he wanted. Had Japan gone ahead with their expansion plans and ignored the US and Allies, most likely the American people would have maintained their isolationist condition. Britain was in no position to stop them and the Nazis were knocking on the front doors in Moscow. Had the US stayed out of the war, the world would probably be a completely different place.
Thank God he did, because otherwise it wouldn't have been a very pretty world today.
It would have made much more sense to attack Siberia as forcing the USSR to fight a war on two fronts may have allowed Germany to deliver a knockout blow to the Soviet Union which would have allowed Japan to accomplish pretty much all its war aims while making it unlike the UK or US would strenuously object.
It would have made much more sense to attack Siberia as forcing the USSR to fight a war on two fronts may have allowed Germany to deliver a knockout blow to the Soviet Union which would have allowed Japan to accomplish pretty much all its war aims while making it unlike the UK or US would strenuously object.
Absolutely.
From the Axis strategy POV, if the Japanese did nothing else but demonstrate along the Soviet border, it would have helped occupy Soviet men and resources. Instead, the Japanese did the worst possible thing. Not only did they not help the Germans, they actually made the Axis position worse by bringing the neutral United States into the war.
The Germans would have been better off if the Japanese stayed neutral then having them attack the USA.
From the Axis strategy POV, if the Japanese did nothing else but demonstrate along the Soviet border, it would have helped occupy Soviet men and resources. Instead, the Japanese did the worst possible thing. Not only did they not help the Germans, they actually made the Axis position worse by bringing the neutral United States into the war.
The Germans would have been better off if the Japanese stayed neutral then having them attack the USA.
There was really no "Axis". Japan and Germany were each pursuing their own interests, somewhat united by the common enemies.
Without oil, the Japanese Empire would collapse. American-driven oil embargo had been specifically designed by Roosevelt to provoke Japan into doing something rash. Simply "parading" near the Soviet border would do nothing to help them. It would help Germany but this wasn't the primary objective of Japanese strategists.
And they did not have the land forces to attack the USSR. Most of their army was preoccupied in China, they didn't have much manpower to spare. The Soviets never completely vacated their Eastern border, they would put up a stiff resistance - and while in the beginning of the war the German army was superior to Red Army in training and overall quality of it's leadership, the Japanese Army had proven itself clearly inferior just two years prior when Zhukov kicked their butt all over Mongolia. Their Navy was way, way better than their Army, and had way, way more prestige after the Army's loss of face in 1938 and 1939. And their Navy wanted to strike East.
The more I read about WW2 - and I've read a lot - the more I am convinced that both Germany and Japan got very, very lucky and achieved about as much as they could possibly hope for. Which means they were pretty much doomed from the start.
You know it's interesting how history works. When we sit in our chairs and read about those 'close run things' we sure look at it from a very different perspective.
If we imagine the situation in the years before the war it sure gives an indication of how some perhaps thought the end was near for Europe and the Pacific territories. Militarism was on the rise, communism was on the ascent and capitalism in the West looked like it was wreck with the Depression. How was everything to hold? And then Hitler grabs Czechoslovakia and the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor in the 'sneak' attack. The initiative certainly at that time was with the Axis. The West had to catch up. They did and it was do or die.
Yep, that's exactly what I meant by their command employing them wrong. Submarines IMHO were kinda like the insurgents of naval warfare; they can occasionally get lucky and 'snipe' a battleship or aircraft carrier, but their main strength is in sinking all those supply ships that carry the oil and other things that those battleships and carriers need to operate.
The US on the other hand did to Japan what Germany had been trying to do to England: sink so much of their merchant shipping that they quite simply couldn't function logistically. It's kinda ironic that Japan began the war to get resources yet by the last 1 - 2 years of the war they could barely bring anything into the home islands.
Japan did quite a few things wrong tactically in WWII, not just strategically. There could be a whole other thread on how they did things like seeming to spend more time indoctrinating their soldiers than on actually training them, or focusing more on instilling a 'warrior spirit' than on actually developing decent small arms. Or how they didn't focus enough on training replacement carrier pilots or ...
America didn't depend on a merchant fleet for the survival of the country, unlike England or Japan. Our sources of supplies and raw materials were already within our own borders. Therefore, Japan using the same tactics as the US and German submarine fleets would have a been pointless misallocation of resources with no real benefit to the Japanese war effort.
As for their effectiveness, I'm sure the crew of the USS Indianapolis would have strong opinions about their seeming uselessness.
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