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Old 09-11-2015, 06:38 PM
 
24,094 posts, read 16,649,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Yeah. It's quite frightening how easily people across Europe, even in occupied countries turned in their Jewish fellow-countrymen for a little loot they received from the Nazis. The Dutch were particularly good at that.
In 48 hours the Nazis rounded up over 13,000 Jews in Paris, France. An occupying force does not reach those sort of numbers without assistance including where to look. It turns out the French state including LE were happy it seems to help things along. France - Police files shed light on wartime Jewish roundup - France 24

In parts of Eastern Europe came stories of small towns/villages rounding up Jews, locking them into barns or other buildings for days at time, then finally setting the structure on fire. They did this without any prodding and or assistance from Nazis.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
In 48 hours the Nazis rounded up over 13,000 Jews in Paris, France. An occupying force does not reach those sort of numbers without assistance including where to look. It turns out the French state including LE were happy it seems to help things along. France - Police files shed light on wartime Jewish roundup - France 24

In parts of Eastern Europe came stories of small towns/villages rounding up Jews, locking them into barns or other buildings for days at time, then finally setting the structure on fire. They did this without any prodding and or assistance from Nazis.
Really frightening the deep-seated anti-semitism and hatred the Nazis could build on for their extermination politics against the Jews, culminating in more than 6 mio murders. There were a few areas of bravery though, for example in Denmark where the people helped Jews flee to Sweden. It shows that a little bravery and resistance could have gone a long way to delay or even prevent the Holocaust in its horrendous dimension.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Really frightening the deep-seated anti-semitism and hatred the Nazis could build on for their extermination politics against the Jews, culminating in more than 6 mio murders. There were a few areas of bravery though, for example in Denmark where the people helped Jews flee to Sweden. It shows that a little bravery and resistance could have gone a long way to delay or even prevent the Holocaust in its horrendous dimension.
Oh yes, there were extraordinary acts of courage and bravery by many all over Europe. Trouble is you never could be sure whom to trust.

Case in point not all of the Catholic church in Europe was on board with saving Jews. In fact the Church played a large role in hiding and helping war criminals escape Europe to South America and other safe places. That and or provided shelter and so forth to persons they knew full well were wanted by authorities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Touvier
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Agreed.

Point of my posts was to show that even Jews who believed they would be "protected" by their social connections and or standing found their friends and others turned on them.

The Nazis would not have been able to transport, murder , force into slave labor, loot, pillage and so forth the Jewish population of not only Germany but conquered lands so easily without extensive compliance by so called "Christians".

Read something somewhere that said the Nazis didn't force any member of military or German civilian (perhaps others) to work in the death/slave labor camps and or be part of the death bureaucracy; that is if you wanted out a transfer could be arranged. Those that were there wanted to be and had no problems with what was going on and or their part.

OTOH you had places like Italy where this hatred of Jews either didn't exist in large part and or for various other reasons military, elected officials along with local populace refused to comply with Nazi demands to hand over. Yes, many Italian Jews were sent to the camps but the ratio was far less (IIRC) than in places like France.
Enrico Fermi one of the greatest Physicists of the 20th century feared for the life of his wife and himself because he married a Jew. He was barred from travel outside of Italy but when he won the 1937 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery of nuclear fission Mussolini's Government relented and allowed him to go to Sweden to accept his Prize. For Fermi it was the opportunity he wanted and after the Nobel ceremony he booked a one way voyage to New York for him and his family and then by rail Chicago where a tenured chair in Physics awaited him at the Univ. of Chicago. Fermi was the rare Physicist who was equally gifted as a theorist and as a experimentalist. Fermi is a big reason America built nuclear weapons in only 3 years and had a working nuclear reactor by Christmas 1942.

Don't kid yourself hatred of Jews was well established in Italy from Pope Pius XII who remained blind and deaf to the Holocaust and used the Church Offices to spirit Nazi war criminals the likes Eichmann, Mengele and Barbie to South America with fake identities and Vatican travel papers to the man on the street.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
I agree, but I would change common to "about as common". The discrimination, sporadic violence, varying degrees of social harassment that Jews faced in eastern Europe led them to emphasize education as a way out. The "out" component could be the urban ghetto or the rural sharecropping village. This emphasis on education did not turn every Jew into the proverbial "brain surgeon", and there were plenty of poor Jews, but it did yield results over the generations.

As a side note Chinese Indonesians (a substantial number of whom are christians) are very similar to old world jews. They face sporadic violence, discrimination and varying degrees of social harassment. They also emphasize education as a way out of the 'hood or the rural sharecropping area with resentful youth listenting to rap and Jihad sermons. Not all are wealthy, there are plenty of poor ones, but the cultural emphasis on education has paid off for Chinese Indonesians. Like jews in europe, these successes have led to exaggerated stereotypes and jealousy by Indonesians.
The Chinese in southeast Asia came to power in a different manner though. They were extensions or agents and their descendants of the powerful chinese dynasties and the people who ran the show within it. They were more advanced in many significant areas than their neighbors.

Unlike the Jews who had no home, and were basically wandering about looking to just survive. The Chinese that ventured into Southeast Asia had a large support base back home, were well funded, and generally had a positive outlook on life.
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
Enrico Fermi one of the greatest Physicists of the 20th century feared for the life of his wife and himself because he married a Jew. He was barred from travel outside of Italy but when he won the 1937 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery of nuclear fission Mussolini's Government relented and allowed him to go to Sweden to accept his Prize. For Fermi it was the opportunity he wanted and after the Nobel ceremony he booked a one way voyage to New York for him and his family and then by rail Chicago where a tenured chair in Physics awaited him at the Univ. of Chicago. Fermi was the rare Physicist who was equally gifted as a theorist and as a experimentalist. Fermi is a big reason America built nuclear weapons in only 3 years and had a working nuclear reactor by Christmas 1942.

Don't kid yourself hatred of Jews was well established in Italy from Pope Pius XII who remained blind and deaf to the Holocaust and used the Church Offices to spirit Nazi war criminals the likes Eichmann, Mengele and Barbie to South America with fake identities and Vatican travel papers to the man on the street.
Yeah the Catholic Church had a very dubious and ambiguous role in the Holocaust. They were all over the place, from active helpers to outspoken critics. I think part of why they helped the criminal Nazis flee is that if there was no public trial there would be no implication of the Catholic Churches involvement.
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:25 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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Originally Posted by madison999 View Post
Disregarding everything in this link except statistics, are these numbers correct? These are the kinds of numbers that brought up this thread. They are all over the net...how accurate they are I do not know...but if they are accurate, for less than 1% to have that much control is mind blowing to me...

The Reasons Historians Call WWII A 'Jewish Creation'
You are quoting a conspiracy theorist and an anti-Semite????



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Old 09-12-2015, 05:34 PM
 
13,313 posts, read 18,310,602 times
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Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
You are quoting a conspiracy theorist and an anti-Semite????




And who pronounced him one? You ever paid attention to who are practically all history books authors?
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:40 PM
 
13,313 posts, read 18,310,602 times
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‘Jewish’ Senior Officers In Hitler’s Army: Erhard Milch, Wilhelm Keitel, Walther von Brauchitsch, Erich Raeder, and Maximilian von Weichs during a Nazi rally in Nuremberg, Germany, 12 Sep 1938.
That's GROSS ADMIRAL Raeder, btw. Not some unter on the East Front. Von Brauchitsch operated with tank armies.


Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.
Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler’s soldiers, including two field marshals and fifteen generals (two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals), « men commanding up to 100,000 troops. »
https://rafzen.wordpress.com/2013/02...an-von-weichs/


Brian Rigg is antisemite too? Is any person that even mentions word Jew and antisemite?

Btw, Milch was the one who personally killed jet fighters development in Wehrmacht and, by doing so, served Allies great service. Talk about 5th Column....
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:43 PM
 
5,081 posts, read 2,358,872 times
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Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
You are quoting a conspiracy theorist and an anti-Semite????



I quoted no one troll. I made no statements. I posed questions. Sorry that's too much for you.
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