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Old 09-11-2015, 08:33 AM
 
8,352 posts, read 7,295,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post
By 1863, the north used a draft to maintain its army.

Drafting a man into war and requiring he fight and even die is turning a human into property.

Property of the state. Basically, a slave with a gun that is forced to march towards other men with guns.
The Confederate States of America instituted a military draft in April 1862 (by comparison, the United States instituted a military draft in March 1963).

By your own definition, the power brokers of the CSA enslaved its own citizens.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:53 PM
 
18,039 posts, read 25,052,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
What you don't seem to understand is that the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 forced free states to enforce Federal law despite their opposition to slavery. The Act required local law enforcement magistrates and even the average citizen to aid in the capture, detention and return of "fugitive" slaves. In short, the Act ushered into enactment by the slave states, revoked the right of states to refuse to assist in enforcing laws that they found onerous obviating the rights of states to abstain from being involved in slavery.
Exactly,
The South pushed for a "big government law" to force Northern states to support slavery (Fugitive Slave Act)
And when Northern states fought back to defend the "States rights" that's when the South seceded.
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Atlantis
3,016 posts, read 3,891,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post

By your own definition, the power brokers of the CSA enslaved its own citizens.
The Southern government had to have a draft to defend against northern aggression and tyranny.

The North did not even have to go to war. The states that left the union just wanted to leave an association peacefully, and maintaining slavery was not the primary goal. The south had economic reasons along with state's rights beliefs.

If the south did not have a right to leave the union, then by default, the original colonies did not have a right to break ties with England.
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,965,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post

If the south did not have a right to leave the union, then by default, the original colonies did not have a right to break ties with England.
The situations were very different. Great Britain operated the colonies under charters which were issued at the King's pleasure, and could be withdrawn at the King's command. In no manner could the colonies be said to be part of the government of Great Britain save for that it was under that government's jurisdiction. The colonies had no representatives in Parliament, colonial executive power rested in the hands of Crown appointed officials.

Consequently, if the colonial subjects objected to the manner in which they were being governed, their only ultimate recourse would be revolution. No process existed to provide a remedy otherwise.

Those circumstances hardly described the relationship between the southern states and the US Federal government. That central government was chockablock with representatives from the Southern states who were fully vested to speak on behalf of southern interests and vote as they saw fit. All three branches of the US government were open to southerners.

The charter which bound the states together was the consequence of a national convention which included southern representatives, and was ratified by the votes of the southern states. The document which they ratified bound them to respecting the outcomes of the national elections.

A Confederate revolution required them breaking their pledge to respect those outcomes.

So, no, it is not "by default" at all. One involved breaking away from an absolutist form of authority, the other involved repudiating existing agreements.

Last edited by Grandstander; 09-11-2015 at 06:59 PM..
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:57 PM
 
2,798 posts, read 3,145,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
The proof of concept that some entity does not endorse a policy has to show consistent and ongoing intent in contradiction of that policy. In other words, if Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread because he is starving, that does not automatically make him a thief of the same category as a mugger. That was an underlying concept underlying proportional response in more developed legal systems.

Creeping Federalism began early on, as a read of the Federalist Papers will attest. The balance between states rights and Federalism was something that was a constant debate, covering many issues.

What the OP does try to promote the common "all or nothing," "black and white" legalistic stupidity of Javier.

Personally, I find Harper Lee's "Go Set A Watchman" to show a very plausible and nuanced dynamic of the states rights issue in the 1950s and 1960s. "To Kill A Mockingbird" was a simplistic novel that could be read by the masses, and focused on a single issue. "GSAW" shows much more realistic sociology.
Btw- in a few years we will get a new push on federal executive powers thanks to the Republicans in Congress, particularly their tea party core, who refuse to compromise and torpedo any meaningful legislation for years now. For example there was no ambassador to Germany for more than a year because the then-minority GOP in the Senate refused to allow a vote on it, or the well-known government shut-downs caused by them. This will lead to new executive powers for the president to enact laws in case Congress cannot agree on them. Count on it within a few years. Way to kill yourself.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:00 PM
 
2,798 posts, read 3,145,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Exactly,
The South pushed for a "big government law" to force Northern states to support slavery (Fugitive Slave Act)
And when Northern states fought back to defend the "States rights" that's when the South seceded.
The South simply wanted to have it always their way, whether it was for our against state rights. When they didn't get their will 100% for the first time they threw a temper tantrum and commuted treason. That's something to be very proud of. Yeah.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Secure Bunker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
History myth - The South supported states rights
If you go to the new museum at Gettysburg there is a large flag on the wall. It was carried into battle by a Confederate battle unit. It says "States Rights" right on it.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,965,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyster View Post
If you go to the new museum at Gettysburg there is a large flag on the wall. It was carried into battle by a Confederate battle unit. It says "States Rights" right on it.
So? That somehow or other settles matters?

If you look below you'll see one of the clauses in the Confederate Constitution, the law of their land.

Quote:
Article I Section 9(4)
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed
Avalon Project - Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:54 PM
 
2,798 posts, read 3,145,241 times
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The southern treason states were as much for states rights as the present-day Arizona legislature is: they always protest Federal overreach and regulations, but anytime a local government enacts an ordinance they do not like, they will pre-empt it on the state-level, down to plastic bag regulations. Just the same bunch of hypocrits.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:59 PM
 
2,798 posts, read 3,145,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyster View Post
If you go to the new museum at Gettysburg there is a large flag on the wall. It was carried into battle by a Confederate battle unit. It says "States Rights" right on it.
Even the southern racists understood by 1863 that "Keep the negro enslaved." does not make for a good battlefield slogan in the eyes of humanity, as much as they wanted it.
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