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Are there any state constitutions that establish(ed) an official state religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey
As of 1776, only two colonies did not have established state religions: Pennsylvania and Rhode Island. Congregationalism was the established religion in Massachusetts and other New England colonies, and Anglicanism in Virginia and central and southern colonies. Anglicanism wasn't removed as the Virginia state religion until 1786.
Well see, that's the interesting thing. The writers of the COTUS had every opportunity to state in that document, in clear black and white words, no pussyfooting around, that Christianity was to be the official recognized religion of their new nation and/or that American is a Christian nation. Yet, they didn't. Even though they were clear and detailed about most everything else they wrote in the COTUS. And despite the fact there were at that time numerous precedents in nearly all the state constitutions that they could have followed.
Those of you who push religion so strongly -- as many in this thread certainly do -- I just hope you realize that you are being counterproductive toward your position.
I was raised a Methodist, converted to become Catholic, and am now a healthy mix between Christianity and Theravada Buddhism. I have never had a problem, for example, with a Ten Commandments monument on government property...until I started reading City-Data forums; now I'm all for tearing them down and having them placed on some church's property. I've never had a problem with the Congress having a prayer before their deliberations; now I am totally opposed to it. I've never had a problem with the Pledge Of Allegiance and that one added phrase...until lately. The more you shove it down our throats, the more I want to vomit it back out.
Because of evangelical witching (well, it rhymes with that), I've totally scrapped the Old Testament, although I still believe in much of the New Testament.
So my advice would be to stop shoving the religion down other people's throats. You're being counterproductive to your cause.
1. The title of this thread is Founding Fathers and Religion. In fact, the Bill of rights was not applicable to the States until after the Civil War when the 14th Amendment was ratified. So, no, the provisions of the Bill of Rights did not apply to the States since 1791.
I don't think that is true even with the ratification of the 14th Amendment. Yes, still Congress cannot establish a national religion, and neither, now, can the State governments (including any of their various agencies, departments, and anyone acting under authority of a State) establish a State religion.
This does not, however, IMO, mean that the States cannot promote any or a single religion. Of course, it depends on what you mean by promote. Certainly tax free status is a type of encouragement, or assistance, if not promotion of religion.
Churches are tax exempt under the principle that there is no surer way to destroy the free exercise of religion than to tax it. If the government is allowed to tax churches. In 1970, in Walz vs. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the high court stated that a tax exemption for churches creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state and far less than taxation of churches. The Supreme Court also said that the power to tax involves the power to destroy. Taxing churches breaks down the healthy separation of church and state and leads to the destruction of the free exercise of religion.
Churches are supposed to be not-for-profit. As such, they should remain un-taxed unless or until they are found to be making a profit (that is not re-invested in furthering its charitable works).
Go back and read the portion of your post I have put in bold print. You indicate that nothing in the Constitution prohibits a state from doing something to "advance" a religion.
You are sorely mistaken. In Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 US 602 (1971) our Supreme Court came up with a test for determining what laws or actions by states violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. Essentially, a law must meet each prong of three separate requirements to be constitutional. Here they are:
1. A law must be enacted for a primarily secular purpose;
2. A law must not have the effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion or a religion;
3. It must not result in an excessive entanglement between the state and religion.
By definition, any law enacted by a state to advance religion would not meet either (1) or (2) of the test set forth in Lemon v. Kurtzman.
Some people constantly claim that the United States is a "Christian Nation". I personally find this attitude downright ignorant and even offensive. Certainly, Christian people played a role in the formation of the United States. However, the First Amendment to the Constitution states that: Congress shall not establish a religion, nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.
This language would seem to indicate that the framers had no religious preference. Even so, one presidential candidate doesn't think Muslims should be allowed to become President. I wonder if he ever once read the First Amendment?
I think those who believe this country is a "Christian Nation" would do well to look at the backgrounds of are most prominent Founding Fathers. Here is a brief example of what I am talking about:
Ben Franklin: A non-Christian. He was a Deist who at earlier point in his life was an atheist. Deists believe that a Supreme Being organized the universe, but than plays no further role.
George Washington: Never had much interest in religion. When he lay on his death bed in 1799, dying of a strep infection, he refused offers to have a clergyman present.
Thomas Jefferson: An agnostic. Many people don't know that Jefferson rewrote the New Testament and created his own version and took all the miracles out of it. Jefferson freely tolerated all discussion about religion, but was not a practicing Christian.
John Adams: May have belonged to a church, but had little interest in religion. Perhaps, he could best be described as a either a Unitarian or atheist.
The Framers were bothered by the example of the Church of England, or the Anglican Church, being the official state church. The language of the First Amendment exists because they didn't want the Church of England or any other religion being forced on them.
This is something that all of us should try hard to remember, the next time someone wants to "bring prayer back to school", force our society to adopt their religious attitudes by adopting laws that oppose birth control, pornography, or abortion, or wants schools to replace teachings of scientific theories like evolution with their religious dogma about "creation". The First Amendment exists for a reason. It is not only to protect religion, but to protect the rest of us from having unwanted religious dogma forced upon us.
Very good post, Mark. Most of the "Founding Fathers" - (a term coined by Warren G. Harding, for use in a campaign speech) were not terribly religious men.
Certainly, they were not members of the Fundamentalist Christian groups that form the religious right and exist today. They tended to have been born into one of four religious traditions that came from Great Britain - Anglican (Episcopal), Reformed - Congregationalist - United Church of Christ, of which Unitarianism was an offshoot, and Presbyterian - also in the Reformed tradition.
Three were Roman Catholics - Charles Fitzsimmons, and Charles and Danial Carroll and Friends - Quaker. There was one Lutheran.
John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister - which does not mean that he was a raging religious fanatic.
One could be a Deist - and be a member of any of those denominations - or none.
My point being - none were "Fundamentalist Born Again Christians". Not one.
In fact, American Fundamentalism did not really take hold in America until after the Civil War.
Many of the denominations that are thought of as "Born Again Christian" or "Evangelical" had not been formed yet. The largest Fundamentalist denomination in the US was formed prior to the Civil War when the Baptist church split into the American Baptist Church - who opposed slavery and was actively abolitionist - and the Southern Baptist Church.
Those who claim the Founding Fathers as Godly Christian men who sought to form the fledgling country into a "Christian Nation" have only to crack a text book. They were attempting to get away from a "state religion". That was the point.
The main religious denominations that claim that the "Founding Fathers" are one of their own, are sadly misinformed. Many were not at all "religious" men.
These fundamentalist denominations were not in existence until the turn of the last century. They took a foothold in mainly in rural areas and among the poor.
These new and decidedly conservative denominations include - Independent, Bible, and Southern Baptist, Church of the Nazerene, Four Square Gospel Church, Church of God, Assemblies of God and Christian and Missionary Alliance and most non denominational mega churches, who come from one of these faith traditions.
These religions arose as a result of a rejection of any form of modernism. Not only theological - but cultural.
These groups can all be categorized as Evangelical. Fundamentalist and Pietist or Holiness. They and their off shoots comprise today's "Religious Right".
The Founding Fathers were religious liberals or moderates who despised the mixing of government and religion.
ETA - Religious Right spokes person Pat Robertson famously a supporter of the idea that we are a Christian Nation, stated that members of mainline denominations (the ones ascribed to by the FFs) - were all going to hell, several years ago.
Christianity was and has been the most popular religion in America. Now a days during these present times Islam is slowly but surely becoming just as popular as Christianity especially for African Americans, not only in America but all over the world, even nations where Christianity is already present. Another practice is Atheism that is getting bigger by the decade especially for our young people. But as far as an American "religion" it is Christianity and its not very hard to notice, its elementary honestly.
In order to make sure all of these colonies could co-exist in the new federal government, the Founders made sure that religion was kept out of the government and the government was kept our of religion.
I have no quarrel with this statement. I think the same. The government of the USA was established without an official religion. Clearly, the British government was causing problems with their state sponsored religion at the time of the Declaration of Independence. By writing that into the Constitution, we could avoid such similar troubles in the new USA.
I struggle when people try to use that fact to posit the opposite of what was really true and state that the vast majority of the founders and people of that time were faithless atheists or that somehow Deists are more similar to atheists than they are to Christian. It's troubling to me when I hear things inconsistent with the history that I have read and understood. People could be misled.
I truly wonder if the founders believed that what some today call other "religions" such as Buddhism, Hinduism and the like were religions to them when they seemed to us the word "Church" and "religion" somewhat interchangeably. Church being a Christian term not shared with other spiritual paths.
So if someone asked me what America was, in terms of religion, I would say "it's sort of a Christian nation".
OK, It doesn't matter to me. like I said. I dislike the extremists on both sides, and don't care what the others believe or don't believe.
"Sort of" is good, and have seen that used before, as in "Sort of Dead" or "Sort of Pregnant." It shouldn't matter to anyone what this Country is. A "Christian" Nation wording means no more to me than "Angel Food Cake" or "Devils Food." Its only words. The people that get offended by it have some serious issues, same as the folks who get offended by a Ball Team being called the "Redskins."
There is no need to call America a "Christian nation" unless you think Christianity should or does have some bearing on the American government.
And there is no call not to, since its not important one way or the other. You can call it whatever one likes. I think Christianity "does" have bearing on Government in cases, since people are the Government, and live their lives according to what they believe. If it didn't have any influence, we would not be having Government Battles on Abortion, Marriage, and a whole host of other Religious issues. To ignore that is to insert head in sand, or other worse places.
Christianity was and has been the most popular religion in America. Now a days during these present times Islam is slowly but surely becoming just as popular as Christianity especially for African Americans, not only in America but all over the world, even nations where Christianity is already present. Another practice is Atheism that is getting bigger by the decade especially for our young people. But as far as an American "religion" it is Christianity and its not very hard to notice, its elementary honestly.
Exactly. And it effects Government, like it or not. One can deny it till the Cows Come Home, but all you need to do is read the paper, on Marriage issues, Abortion and other Religious related fights that the Government participates in.
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