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this is true
but many of them died standing...fighting...
I think if the jews had been armed, less of them would have died in the camps, more would have died fighting...similar outcome though...
Oh, it's a glorious thought indeed...but very absent from reality. The problem with your line of thinking is that it ignores the situation as it existed and what was known. Resistance was a sure death sentence, being herded off to a ghetto in a pogrom was not great but at least you and your family were alive. I'm sure that if they knew that they were going to be sent off to extermination camps from the beginning they would have certainly resisted, but that's not what anyone thought.
Oh, it's a glorious thought indeed...but very absent from reality. The problem with your line of thinking is that it ignores the situation as it existed and what was known. Resistance was a sure death sentence, being herded off to a ghetto in a pogrom was not great but at least you and your family were alive. I'm sure that if they knew that they were going to be sent off to extermination camps from the beginning they would have certainly resisted, but that's not what anyone thought.
That's rather similar to the aircraft passengers in the 9/11 situation. Always before, it had been a matter of agreeing with the hijacker's commands, then nearly everyone eventually went home (except whoever had been the first "example of our seriousness" and any Marines--Arabs hated US Marines. It was that "...shores of Tripoli thing").
The situation is different now, and the "never again" factor is in play--nobody is going to hijack an American airliner again with a box cutter.
Oh, it's a glorious thought indeed...but very absent from reality. The problem with your line of thinking is that it ignores the situation as it existed and what was known. Resistance was a sure death sentence, being herded off to a ghetto in a pogrom was not great but at least you and your family were alive. I'm sure that if they knew that they were going to be sent off to extermination camps from the beginning they would have certainly resisted, but that's not what anyone thought.
Recall watching one survivor of the camps being interviewed as part of some program on PBS television.
She said when the Nazis "invited" a group of Jews to go on board trains they were told they were going to some "safe" place, forget the town or whatever. It was only after the train began moving away that people noticed it was going in the opposite direction of safety (east not west or vice versa).
The Nazis employed many methods in rounding up Jews all over Europe. The German military/Nazis and those who cooperated with their ghastly deeds actually used well worn methods in moving Jews and others to their "final destination".
Any military, dictatorship or whatever knows to move large populations in relation to one's own numbers of troops/LE you want as little fuss as possible. It is rather like herding cattle (poor analogy but still), spook enough and then you have all heck breaking loose. Of course the Nazis or whomever would have no problems mowing down large groups right where they stood, but public mass murder was to be avoided. Out in the woods, behind camp walls or otherwise out of sight was another thing.
So you round persons up and tell them they are being "resettled" elsewhere. This was something Jews of Europe along with other populations were well used to.
One opinion here, but dealing with the Soviet Union instead:
Keep in mind that a handful of Jews, armed with a few dozen firearms, took longer to subdue during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising than all of Poland took to conquer by the Nazis.
Most Europeans back then weren't gun owners to the extremes of US gun owners today. And remember Europeans had a long life of a caste system. So they believed in the higher government powers. And I still feel that the Nazi party also got in power because of WWI. Germans wanted a savior. And Hitler was it. He said the right things and for a long time Germany was prosperous. Military might, a promise of a advanced pure society, technological discoveries, what's not to like when someone pulls a country out of a bad economic situation right?
But simply giving someone a gun does in no way mean they can use it , know how to use it or even willing to do so. I think the reason Nazis got away with doing what they did was because everyone tried to appease them and nobody knew what was happening to the relocated Jews. It was rumors and they (at the time) seemed outlandish and unbelievable. But by the time the people realized they were on trains or in camps.
I mean Hitker wanted Poland. Nobody did anything, then another country. Nobody did anything. By the time anyone fund anything Germany was kicking azz everywhere.
Yes, as noted many times in this thread and else where; no one at first truly believed the "stories" of mass murders/exterminations going on in woods or whatever. As that method proved too messy and public for the Nazis the camps were repurposed and later expanded to do the deed. Even then people still didn't believe the horror stories. I mean who then would? Germans who supposedly were one of the most advanced societies in Europe putting human beings into large ovens?
As word finally was smuggled out and proof along with it people began to change their tune.
Let's not forget, too, that a Jewish revolt in Germany would have evoked no sympathetic response from other nations at that time, not even the US. Rather, every other Western nation (plus the USSR) would have responded to such a revolt by more tightly controlling their own Jewish populations.
What an absurd statement. Jews were firmly entrenched in the British Empire.
They had already been very influential, even acquiring Lordships and helping to
establish foreign policy and banking. You mention the USSR. The Russian revolutions
were Jewish revolutions.
What an absurd statement. Jews were firmly entrenched in the British Empire.
They had already been very influential, even acquiring Lordships and helping to
establish foreign policy and banking.
Ah. Is that why the MS St Louis with nearly a thousand German Jewish refugees was warmly received in Canada in 1939?
Sure, there were influential Jews in Britain, but were they influential enough to dictate a national policy that would have intervened in Germany--essentially declare war--to protect German Jews?
Quote:
You mention the USSR. The Russian revolutions were Jewish revolutions.
Are you claiming the Bolshevik Revolution? That was the only successful one. Unsuccessful Jewish revolts only prove my point.
Ah. Is that why the MS St Louis with nearly a thousand German Jewish refugees was warmly received in Canada in 1939?
Sure, there were influential Jews in Britain, but were they influential enough to dictate a national policy that would have intervened in Germany--essentially declare war--to protect German Jews?
Are you claiming the Bolshevik Revolution? That was the only successful one. Unsuccessful Jewish revolts only prove my point.
I'm not totally sure what we're discussing here, but it seems that you're underestimating
Jewish power in the world, during the age of the topic at hand. British jewry had already
decalred holy war against Germany in the early 30's. Probably the sole example of
continuing suppression of Jews at the time was in Germany proper, and political discord
in Italy and Spain and the Austro-Hungarian region.
Otherwise, Jews had long been non-oppressed.
I'm not totally sure what we're discussing here, but it seems that you're underestimating
Jewish power in the world, during the age of the topic at hand. British jewry had already
decalred holy war against Germany in the early 30's.
As Stalin said of the Pope: How many tank divisions did those Jewish holy warriors have?
The question is still: Could the Holocaust have occurred if Jews had been Armed and resisted?
The answer is still: No. And no other country would have supplied tank divisions to come to their aid.
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