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Old 12-19-2015, 05:37 PM
 
Location: North York
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I realize the bomb was originally designed with Germany in mind. But what would be the point of dropping it on Germany? What was left to blow up?
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:12 PM
 
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If Hitler would have waited to in Russia then Russia would have invaded Germany since the Soviets were two weeks away from their planned invasion of Germany.
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsRosencranz View Post
The A bomb was originally intended to be used on Germany. So between the Russians moving fast on the eastern front and the Allies moving in the west Hitler had ZERO chance of extending the Reich. If the Russians had been stalled the A bomb would have been used.

It would have been very risky to drop the A bomb on Germany because there may have been a point where the German americans would not have accepted that and may have withdrawn their support of the war. If that happened the American war machine would have stopped and America may have gone under. Because the German americans were the backbone of America and their withdrawing their support of America would have caused this country to go under. It is all hypothetical but the U.S. government was watching the German americans very close in case something like was about to happen.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 1,849,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman View Post
If Hitler would have waited to in Russia then Russia would have invaded Germany since the Soviets were two weeks away from their planned invasion of Germany.
Doubtful. This is the claim from Suvorov's book that completely fails to take into account the sorry state of Soviet Military at that time. The RKKA just underwent a massive purge in 1937-1938, followed by enormous and rapid expansion. That left it severely understaffed at all command levels, and with many commanders of all ranks acting in capacities way above their training or abilities. If Stalin had any doubts on the severity of the problem, they were all removed by the disastrous performance of RKKA in the Winter War.

Also, they had equipment problems. In the early 1930s, the Soviets possessed some of the best airplanes and tanks in the world. The situation changed very rapidly just as they were resting on their laurels, and by the end of the decade it became very obvious that their equipment was outclassed by the new German and British designs. I-16 was a revolutionary plane when introduced in 1934, but it could not compete with Bf-109 just three years later. Their tanks were in the same predicament. So in the late 1930s, they started a frantic rearmament program. This program resulted in some excellent tanks (like the KV series and the famous T-34) and they were just starting to get their airplanes in order, but all of that equipment was just being introduced in 1941. They were absolutely not ready in 1941, they would not be ready in 1942, if they indeed wanted to strike first (*which I have my doubts on) they would probably attempt it in 1943 if ever.

* the Soviets seem to have had an inferiority complex, of kinds. They were always worried that the West would attack and destroy them, and despite having the biggest military with huge numbers of tanks and airplanes, have always had a very defensive mentality. This did not go away until their victory in WW2. In 1940-early 41, Stalin went to extreme lengths to please the Germans and postpone the potential war. He was most likely extremely impressed by the speed with which they knocked out France - then still considered a military powerhouse. So I highly doubt that he would attack Germany - which he couldn't even attack directly, he'd have to go through buffer states first - had Hitler not attacked first.
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Old 12-21-2015, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,576 posts, read 7,839,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Doubtful. This is the claim from Suvorov's book that completely fails to take into account the sorry state of Soviet Military at that time. The RKKA just underwent a massive purge in 1937-1938, followed by enormous and rapid expansion. That left it severely understaffed at all command levels, and with many commanders of all ranks acting in capacities way above their training or abilities. If Stalin had any doubts on the severity of the problem, they were all removed by the disastrous performance of RKKA in the Winter War.

Also, they had equipment problems. In the early 1930s, the Soviets possessed some of the best airplanes and tanks in the world. The situation changed very rapidly just as they were resting on their laurels, and by the end of the decade it became very obvious that their equipment was outclassed by the new German and British designs. I-16 was a revolutionary plane when introduced in 1934, but it could not compete with Bf-109 just three years later. Their tanks were in the same predicament. So in the late 1930s, they started a frantic rearmament program. This program resulted in some excellent tanks (like the KV series and the famous T-34) and they were just starting to get their airplanes in order, but all of that equipment was just being introduced in 1941. They were absolutely not ready in 1941, they would not be ready in 1942, if they indeed wanted to strike first (*which I have my doubts on) they would probably attempt it in 1943 if ever.

* the Soviets seem to have had an inferiority complex, of kinds. They were always worried that the West would attack and destroy them, and despite having the biggest military with huge numbers of tanks and airplanes, have always had a very defensive mentality. This did not go away until their victory in WW2. In 1940-early 41, Stalin went to extreme lengths to please the Germans and postpone the potential war. He was most likely extremely impressed by the speed with which they knocked out France - then still considered a military powerhouse. So I highly doubt that he would attack Germany - which he couldn't even attack directly, he'd have to go through buffer states first - had Hitler not attacked first.
An additional problem would have been the fact that in 1941, the entire Red Army was in the midst of a massive reorganization in which armor battalions were being withdrawn from rifle divisions and constituted in new armor divisions. It's hard to imagine much of a worse time to launch an attack - or to be planning to launch one. So it's no surprise that there's not any real evidence of such an imminent attack, which exists mainly in the minds of Third Reich apologists. (which is what nickerman appears to be - case in point: a few days ago he started the thread titled 'why don't economists talk about Hitler's economic miracle?' in the economics forum).
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
47,999 posts, read 20,214,094 times
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We have the reports of Stalin being shocked stupid by the invasion and existing in a state of denial for the first several days.

It is difficult to associate that portrait with a man planning his own attack which was to commence in two weeks.
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 1,849,359 times
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
We have the reports of Stalin being shocked stupid by the invasion and existing in a state of denial for the first several days.

It is difficult to associate that portrait with a man planning his own attack which was to commence in two weeks.
Yes. They won a couple of border clashes with Japan, almost lost the war with Finland, he was not about to take on Germany. All alone. Especially as it was fighting the British (whom he had a deep mistrust of ). I am speculating of course, but Stalin likely couldn't believe that Hitler, who was getting huge shipments of raw materials from USSR, and was fighting the British Empire, would be so reckless as to willingly open a second front in the East, drag another enemy into the war, and see these shipments stop.

I don't doubt for a second that Stalin would strike first if Germany was weak and losing. He would not however attack Germany that was strong. The situation in 1940 worked to the great advantage for both sides.

What Stalin did not account for was Hitler's irrational, fanatical belief that his main purpose in life was to create a Great Reich of German People via conquests in the East. He wrote this openly in Mein Kampf, but Stalin did not take it seriously enough.

Hitler didn't attack the USSR in 1941 because he was afraid that Stalin would attack him if he waited. He attacked because conquering lands in the East was his primary goal, the pinnacle of his achievements. Waiting any longer and letting USSR finish it's re-armament wouldn't result in a much worse strategic situation for Germany - the entrenched Germans would be more than able to defend themselves against any Soviet attack. But the re-armed, re-organized RKKA would be far harder to attack and destroy. His invasion of USSR was a pure land grab, timed within the shrinking window of opportunity, nothing else.

Let's say there was someone sane at the helm, instead of Hitler. The pragmatic way to handle the situation in 1941 would be to built a large line of defenses along the border with USSR, help Finns and Hungarians to reinforce their borders, keep Stalin happy, and count those trains coming over from Russia with war supplies. This would also help to drive a wedge between Stalin and the Western Allies, they never really trusted each other much anyway. This could be going on for decades, had the Reich lasted that long. Instead, Hitler drove Germany head first into a war it could not possibly win.
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