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Old 11-29-2015, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,483,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
Linda should study history????





No not really.

Opinion. Or as you say, keep it to others discussions and yes, it's Obama. Across the board.



No not really.

Yeah, why let the facts get in the way....got it...check.



Not sure how that was Wilson's failure since the U.S. wasn't a member.

No, he and a few others only created the league of nations and were directly sought out to administer as much. Which failed.



Bowed??? The Wilson nor any other U.S. president was in a position to force the French, British or Italians to do anything other than what they did, wreck vengeance on Germany and split the territorial spoils between them.

You are partially correct, as the 6 months post war dragged on, his cachet was weakened. He could have gained some comprimises early on but, once the bickering and spoil divvying kicked in, he got the political finger. Which is precisely why the scars of yesteryear were played out as late as the Bosnian conflict.


Please reserve such comments for Politics and Controversies because they have no basis in historical fact, just your personal partisan opinion.

Personally, as one of those parents who experienced the bad old days, I find nothing to criticize young folks from continuing the struggle started by my ancestors, grandparents, and parents. Whether the present climate is as bad as the climate that we experienced is irrelevant.
No one is precluding them from thought, actions or beliefs and I believe you are wise enough to know that and not Mis-construe. It was merely pointed out to illustrate contrast and thus progress. Compared to then? But, liberals will believe what they will believe. Historical facts are clearly in my corner on this one. I have yet to see a bull Connor anywhere in sight. You seen one? Didn't think so.
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,483,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
No one is precluding them from thought, actions or beliefs and I believe you are wise enough to know that and not Mis-construe. It was merely pointed out to illustrate contrast and thus progress. Compared to then? But, liberals will believe what they will believe. Historical facts are clearly in my corner on this one. I have yet to see a bull Connor anywhere in sight. You seen one? Didn't think so.
Not sure what happened to my other responses but, I stand by them. Edit away.
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Old 12-05-2015, 11:08 AM
 
172 posts, read 141,496 times
Reputation: 193
Let's not give Woodrow Wilson a pass. Under Wilson, progress already made for African Americans was greatly diminished. Wilson was an active segregationist who made policy to degrade progress for A-A's. This is the man who fired or demoted blacks and made them work behind a screen in government offices so they would not be seen by their co-workers. In the 21st century, history is being examined for those individuals standing on a pedestal. Some statues will remain others to be toppled. It appears that Wilson's legacy is not standing up to the test of time.
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Old 12-05-2015, 11:58 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
You're correct about the Adam's not owning slaves. I give them lots of credit for this since they obviously could very easily have but they are the only two of the first twelve. Ironically, Grant did own slaves but not while in office. You certainly don't hear much about that.
Slavery was abolished in Massachuesetts in 1783, though some slaves weren't freed immediately; John Adams could have owned slaves but it wasn't that common at the time. John Quincy Adams couldn't unless he owned property in another region of the country. In any case, John Quincy Adams was an abolitionist. I assumed Martin Van Buren never owned slaves...

American Presidents Blog: Martin Van Buren and Slavery
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Old 12-05-2015, 12:27 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,765 posts, read 8,469,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Slavery was abolished in Massachuesetts in 1783, though some slaves weren't freed immediately; John Adams could have owned slaves but it wasn't that common at the time. John Quincy Adams couldn't unless he owned property in another region of the country. In any case, John Quincy Adams was an abolitionist. I assumed Martin Van Buren never owned slaves...

American Presidents Blog: Martin Van Buren and Slavery
But the point here should be (at least as this writer sees it) that the normal advancement from a rural agrarian to an urbanized industrial and commercial economy would have wiped out slavery in any case.

Like most of the talking points raised by the "progressives", the issue has been grossly oversimplified to recruit among the young and simplistic. If we include European feudalism, slavery in one form or another was the rule throughout the civilized world until earliest stirrings of the Enlightenment. And it was the emergence of an open, capitalistic society, as promoted by the likes of Smith and Locke, which eventually made direct servitude unworkable.
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Old 12-05-2015, 01:09 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
But the point here should be (at least as this writer sees it) that the normal advancement from a rural agrarian to an urbanized industrial and commercial economy would have wiped out slavery in any case.
Huh? I thought we were talking about which presidents had slaves. I don't see how that relates to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Like most of the talking points raised by the "progressives", the issue has been grossly oversimplified to recruit among the young and simplistic.
A common "progressive" viewpoint is that slavery would not have died out "naturally" but rather lasted many decades if not for the Civil War; I think you often over-simplify progressive viewpoints rather than understand the nuances of the argument. I'd add more to your point, but your post seems rather off topic to this thread.
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Old 12-05-2015, 01:32 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post

A common "progressive" viewpoint is that slavery would not have died out "naturally" but rather lasted many decades if not for the Civil War; I think you often over-simplify progressive viewpoints rather than understand the nuances of the argument. I'd add more to your point, but your post seems rather off topic to this thread.

Then I'll borrow a page from the tactics of the radical abolitionists and make the question simpler: Assuming slavery would have succumbed to natural economic progress by 1915, was the cost in terms of Civil War and polarization worth it?

Wilson was a prominent example of an educated man caught up in a highly-polarized and oversimplified controversy. It could be argued that he tried to take a moderate stance, but in doing so, fell in with those who had more immediate, and less-principled concerns and objectives. And the same was true of his participation in the Versailles "peace" conference.

The conflict between idealism and realpolitik is common to both major parties; Truman and Eisenhower are examples of leaders who could usually downplay it, while it could be argued that both Lincoln and FDR were willing to accept the consequences of a hard choice. Wilson seems to have tried to "have it both ways" -- and failed miserably.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 12-05-2015 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 12-05-2015, 01:33 PM
 
10,678 posts, read 10,341,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willow1990 View Post
Let's not give Woodrow Wilson a pass. Under Wilson, progress already made for African Americans was greatly diminished. Wilson was an active segregationist who made policy to degrade progress for A-A's. This is the man who fired or demoted blacks and made them work behind a screen in government offices so they would not be seen by their co-workers. In the 21st century, history is being examined for those individuals standing on a pedestal. Some statues will remain others to be toppled. It appears that Wilson's legacy is not standing up to the test of time.
The point I have tried to make in the case of Woodrow Wilson is that he did plenty of good as President. If someone wants to get up and raise the issues about Wilson being prejudiced and favoring segregation I don't have a problem with that. That much is true and is not flattering.

What I object to is someone dwelling on that one point and concluding that simply because of that that Wilson was a bad President. Someone who does that is either a perfectionist who can't stand the idea that a President could have any flaws at all or they know little about history and what was accomplished by Wilson and others during the Progressive Era.

The men who were presidents during the Progressive Era (1901-1921), Teddy Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, and Woodrow Wilson were worthy of the office. They perceived both the strengths and weaknesses in our system and acted to make repairs where they were necessary. i have pointed out some of the things Wilson achieved while he was President and it is impressive legislative record. This may be repetitious, but some people don't seem to want hear it. Wilson's accomplishments include:

1. Passage of the Clayton Anti-trust Act (specifically prohibited price fixing and other anti-competitive business practices.
2. Passage of the Federal Trade Commission Act (created the Federal Trade Commission which prohibits and investigates fraud and other unfair business practices)
3. Passage of the Federal Reserve Act (created the Federal Reserve System which has strengthened our economy and help prevent and ameliorate recessions)
4. Legislation establishing a 40 hour work week for railroad employees and those who could be regulated by Congress. Many people do not know that the work week used to be 50-60 hours for most employees.
5. Women suffrage. The constitution was amended to allow women to vote during Wilson's presidency.
6. Passage of a law prohibiting child labor in business and industry.
7. Lowered tariffs which had been a windfall for corporate barons running American corporations.
8. Passage of legislation that provided for tighter regulation of railroad freight rates. Many do not understand the way railroads used their monopoly position in a community to exploit the farmers and businesses who lived along their tracks.
9. Kept us out of World War I for almost three years.
10. Fought World War I successfully, so that our involvement was over in about eighteen months, minimizing American casualties.

Yeah, I guess he was a racist, but that's about 10% of the story. Unless someone is willing to balance that racism against all these accomplishments, they have no business judging a man who was President almost 100 years ago.

I encourage anyone that wants to know about Wilson, Taft, and Teddy Roosevelt to read The Bully Pulpit by Doris Kearns Goodwin and Wilson by Scott Berg.
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Old 12-05-2015, 02:16 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: NYC
46,070 posts, read 45,078,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Then I'll borrow a page from the tactics of the radical abolitionists and make the question simpler: Assuming slavery would have succumbed to natural economic progress by 1915, was the cost in terms of Civil War and polarization worth it?
Hope I'm not rude, but I'm not answering the question since it appears to be hijacking the thread; I don't see how it relates to this thread at all, it might be a worthy thread topic of its own.

Quote:
Wilson was a prominent example of an educated man caught up in a highly-polarized and oversimplified controversy. It could be argued that he tried to take a moderate stance, [u]but in doing so, fell in with those who had more immediate, and less-principled concerns and objectives.
If you're talking about race, I don't see how. In previous adminstrations, the federal workforce wasn't segregated. Wilson segregated it; that's not fitting in with the norm of the time and society, it's changing it.
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Old 12-05-2015, 04:02 PM
 
1,392 posts, read 1,910,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
Compare him to Theodore Bilbo or William L Scott or Coleman Blease. Wilson was a champion of civil rights compared to them.

"Birth of a Nation", regardless of the racist content of it.. Even today is still often considered one of the top-100 films. No doubt more due to the history of the film and the censorship issues it brought up than the actual content of the film. "Deep Throat" isn't remembered as a classic movie because of the plot, but it's without question one of the top 10-ish most important films ever made.

I don't see any reason to hang Wilson in effigy. Should the fact of his views be buried? Absolutely not. But it's important to understand the times and that what is PC now wasn't then.
You forgot James Vardaman and Ben Tillman both politicians who used to openly advocate genocide against Black Americans and were awarded by voters by making these threats.
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