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Old 12-05-2015, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,844,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
No one is precluding them from thought, actions or beliefs and I believe you are wise enough to know that and not Mis-construe. It was merely pointed out to illustrate contrast and thus progress. Compared to then? But, liberals will believe what they will believe. Historical facts are clearly in my corner on this one. I have yet to see a bull Connor anywhere in sight. You seen one? Didn't think so.
So, because Blacks aren't blatantly being denied their civil rights daily everywhere, they don't have anything to complain about?
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
31,005 posts, read 13,150,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
But the point here should be (at least as this writer sees it) that the normal advancement from a rural agrarian to an urbanized industrial and commercial economy would have wiped out slavery in any case.

...
Perhaps over many decades more. But then, you regressives use that imagined end of slavery to silently say, "And in the mean time, to you ten of thousands of men, women, and children still living as slaves, just your bad luck, you were born at the wrong time; know you place; if you suffer and or die under slavery, it's no problem; again, know your place."
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Then I'll borrow a page from the tactics of the radical abolitionists and make the question simpler: Assuming slavery would have succumbed to natural economic progress by 1915, was the cost in terms of Civil War and polarization worth it?

...
So leaving human as slaves for 50 more years would be no problem at all for those humans. They should have just known their place?
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
....
Yeah, I guess he was a racist, but that's about 10% of the story. Unless someone is willing to balance that racism against all these accomplishments, they have no business judging a man who was President almost 100 years ago....
It's a rather important part of the story.

But that's what most of us progressives want -- to hear the WHOLE story, not just what has typically been written in elementary school texts where every president is supposedly at least a "good" president.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,726 posts, read 10,458,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Perhaps over many decades more. But then, you regressives use that imagined end of slavery to silently say, "And in the mean time, to you ten of thousands of men, women, and children still living as slaves, just your bad luck, you were born at the wrong time; know you place; if you suffer and or die under slavery, it's no problem; again, know your place."
Tens of thousands? Try almost four million and growing.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:37 PM
 
2,482 posts, read 1,657,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
The author fails to demonstrate that WW was responsible for his grandfather's demotion.
How do we know there were not other reasons for it ?
Bingo...
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:52 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: NYC
46,070 posts, read 45,078,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It's a rather important part of the story.

But that's what most of us progressives want -- to hear the WHOLE story, not just what has typically been written in elementary school texts where every president is supposedly at least a "good" president.
I'd hope that's what anyone who cares about history would want, instead of simplistic hero-worship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicks45 View Post
I am so sick of this revisionism that seeks to make a countries historical heroes evil. Someone may have done great things but were racist? Well what country on this planet DOESN'T have many historical figures that may have been?
Personally, I don't see the need to find "heroes" in history, you can find plenty admirable of past people, sure. But they shouldn't be beyond criticism, either.
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Old 12-06-2015, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I'd hope that's what anyone who cares about history would want, instead of simplistic hero-worship.



Personally, I don't see the need to find "heroes" in history, you can find plenty admirable of past people, sure. But they shouldn't be beyond criticism, either.
1. You incorrectly assume that regressives want to know/understand real history. Instead, they seek a history that reinforces their personal beliefs and agenda.

2. Second point, definitely agree.
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Old 12-07-2015, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
6,832 posts, read 4,514,508 times
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If we start erasing the names of racist university presidents from the late 19th, early 20th century ... well, I'd encourage you to buy stock in signage companies because there'll be a lot of re-naming going on.

Woodrow Wilson was a complicated man and is a quite misunderstood president today. Conservatives malign him as a hopeless liberal, the worst of the Progressive movement when he was arguably the conservative choice in the election of 1912 where he faced two opponents who both styled themselves progressives in one way or another - William Howard Taft and Theodore Roosevelt - and one socialist opponent in Eugene V. Debs.

Liberals blame him for his racism, although William Howard Taft is on record calling Filipinos "our little brown brothers" and had the marines fight numerous imperial conflicts against darker people. Theodore Roosevelt, who called the Columbians "Dagoes" when they wouldn't sell the Panama Canal zone to the U.S. and said that the country was better off if 9 out of 10 Indians were dead. Teddy Roosevelt did not lift a finger when 150 black soldiers were dishonorably discharged for a shooting in Brownsville, TX that they did not commit despite Booker T. Washington's pleas for him to intervene.

To the extent Roosevelt and Taft opened some federal jobs to blacks - that was because the Republicans at that time were still "the party of Lincoln" and enjoyed the near-unanimous support of the blacks could vote - those in northern cities like New York and Chicago. So there was some minor patronage doled out. As a Democrat, Wilson had no such commitments to keep and was not disposed toward anything like that anyway.

On foreign policy conservatives like to blame him for suspensions of civil liberties during WWI, etc... and the outcome of the Treaty of Versailles. Wilson's 1916 election opponent Charles Evans Hughes had essentially the same national defense policies so not much would have been different under him. Wilson's previous viable opponent, Theodore Roosevelt, would have rushed headlong into WWI, which the U.S. was not prepared to do, with possibly disastrous results but at the very least costing the U.S. many more senseless casualties.

Wilson actually tried to convince Britain and France at the Paris Peace Conference not to saddle Germany with so many reparations and the war guilt clause, but it was hopeless. Wilson's admonitions had about as much influence on French president Clemenceau and British PM Lloyd George as Jacque Chirac had on George W. Bush when the Iraq War was in consideration. The British and French were determined to get their pound of flesh out of Germany after 4 years of brutal warfare.

A lot of people blame President Wilson for all kinds of things, mostly based on unreasonable views of him taken out of context.

Was he racist against African-Americans? Of course he was, and somewhat more than was average for his time too. He was from the south and grew up in the thick of Lost Cause ideology, so he particularly disliked blacks.

However, he actually had a little more respect for Asians, Latin Americans and Middle Eastern people than Roosevelt or Taft did, for what it's worth. That's not a high bar, but still. Wilson called for self-determination of colonial peoples which is a heck of a lot more than Theodore Roosevelt ever did.

Last edited by redguard57; 12-07-2015 at 12:36 AM..
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,483,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
So, because Blacks aren't blatantly being denied their civil rights daily everywhere, they don't have anything to complain about?


That's a quantum leap and I hope you know that. They can complain up to the point of disrupting others. In this case, at a university. They may not realize this but, for a group that continues to complain about rights they have no problem trampling the rights of others without a care in the world.


Did it ever occur to any of them that OTHER kids might be getting quite uncomfortable with the aggressive tactics? Think every kid feels safe on those campuses?


Discuss, passionately your beliefs. Just don't f everyone around you while doing it. That's where your rights to discuss come to a screeching halt. And if you think the rights of blacks are being trampled, you have no clue as to how they were treated in the 30's up until the 80's.


Things, WHILE NOT PERFECT, have never been better for blacks. However, thanks to this administration, they have been set back at least 3 decades and it will take years for the relations to recover.


Congratulations.
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