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Old 12-17-2015, 09:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
The most dynamic thing that was discussed was that there were willing collaborators among the French, though they were not overly common, and an element of organized resistance which became important, but often in small ways. The vast majority were about surviving. They neither fought back nor collaborated, and obeyed the rules.
Every country in occupied Europe had this phenomena. This was espescially true in western Europe where the Germans did not have a pre conceived intent to destroy occupied countries as nations and to erradicate their cultures.

Instead, as you stated, the Germans just posted sets of rules (some fair, others not fair) and expected people to follow them. Those following the rules were left alone. Many people took this option.
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Ask Russian WWII historians. They find "French resistance" an entertaining joke. They say that the only real worth mentioning as successful guerrilla warfare in occupied Europe were Chetniks. Ruthlessly dealt with by Joseph BT after war.
That is rather odd in that the Chetniks main rival, Tito's Partisans, were far more effective than the Chetniks and in fact had them bottled up in Serbia only by 1944. The Chetniks were accused of collaboration with the Germans they were supposed to be fighting, and accepted logistic support from the occupying Italians. Mostly they fought against the Partisans rather than inflicting any harm to the Axis powers. The Chetniks owe their survival to the Brits who took a long time to realize that the Partisans were actually the ones killing Germans.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Every country in occupied Europe had this phenomena. This was espescially true in western Europe where the Germans did not have a pre conceived intent to destroy occupied countries as nations and to erradicate their cultures.
Other than art work and books stolen or destroyed.

Quote:
Instead, as you stated, the Germans just posted sets of rules (some fair, others not fair) and expected people to follow them. Those following the rules were left alone. Many people took this option.
If only the residence of Oradour-sur-Glane, or Lidice knew how simply the rules worked.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:15 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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When surrounded by wolves most people act like sheep.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Every country in occupied Europe had this phenomena. This was espescially true in western Europe where the Germans did not have a pre conceived intent to destroy occupied countries as nations and to erradicate their cultures.

Instead, as you stated, the Germans just posted sets of rules (some fair, others not fair) and expected people to follow them. Those following the rules were left alone. Many people took this option.
I had the extraordinary experience of a presentation by the audio visual guy at our high school, in California when I was in eleventh grade. He was a boy in one of the major cities of the Netherlands when the Nazi tanks rolled in and the occupation began. He gave a presentation to groups where he drew in the audience to his world, and you felt as if you were there. I only wish someone had recorded his presentation. It was very different than just having someone talk about it.

He would present scenes, as if you were watching a movie but the theater was part of the story. Today, he'd say, and describe an event as you'd see it if you were there. The room was darkened, and after a short while you were. I remember one story he told of a delivery cart pulled by a horse. Food was very short and people carried a knife and a container lest they come upon some animal which might make dinner. The horse collapsed and died in the street. Suddenly, from inside apartments, pedestrians, people in stores, anyone who could get a spot, the horse was stripped to the bone in some ten minutes of feeding frenzy. People ran home to hide their food, and then someone dragged off the bones. He told it so vividly that you could see it running like a movie in your head. He didn't want his audience to take away a bunch of memories, but a sense of what it was like to live them.

He had some chilling moments. I was a blonde then. He got quiet and looked over his audience, and told ever female with blonde hair to stand. It was sooo creapy and scary to stand. Then he described the Lebensbourn. All blonde women would go there. The lights were turned off and then we could sit again. But when they had the discussion class, he was asked about it. It was still not widely known. He explained more, but I'll never forget that creepy moment.

He ended up as an older boy doing some work with the resistance. But he spoke of how it was to their advantage that most people just worried about the day, and didn't want to see anything. They didn't because they chose not to. They provided a cover for those with other plans. Perhaps they might have wished to participate, but didn't want to risk family but simply by their silence helped.

I've read memiours, but this was much more real and I think every person in the room wondered what path they would have chosen.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
Other than art work and books stolen or destroyed.

If only the residence of Oradour-sur-Glane, or Lidice knew how simply the rules worked.
Sure, the Germans did commit atrocities in the west. They even appropriated some cultural treasures. At the same time, you are fooling yourself if you think that German occupation policies in Norway, Denamark, Netherlands and even France were even somewhat as severe as those in Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR. Likewise, Oradour Sur Glane was a weekly, or perhaps daily occurance in the east.
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
At the same time, you are fooling yourself if you think that German occupation policies in Norway, Denamark, Netherlands and even France were even somewhat as severe as those in Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR.
An immaterial argument at best. the issue isn't about whose occupation was more oppressive, but rather your suggestion that life in occupied western Europe was just a matter of some "fair" and "unfair" set of rules. Which is quaint to say the least but hardly an approximation of life under Nazi rule even under their most genteel policies.
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
An immaterial argument at best. the issue isn't about whose occupation was more oppressive, but rather your suggestion that life in occupied western Europe was just a matter of some "fair" and "unfair" set of rules.
Actually, I did not put "unfair" in quotes and thus imply that the Nazi policies were mild.

I also emphasized that the Nazis were not erradicating the culture of western european nations, nor were they attempting to destroy them as peoples. In the east, they were doing both. You are spending alot of time cherry picking my post, then mounting out rage based on something taken out of context ie- "unfair".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
Which is quaint to say the least but hardly an approximation of life under Nazi rule even under their most genteel policies.
Never said said Nazi rule was mild. I did say that there was a world of difference between the Nazi occupation of say, Denmark (and yes, the Nazi occupation of Denmark was relatively genteel) and the Nazi occupation of Poland, USSR etc.

Last edited by Cryptic; 12-18-2015 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Actually, I did not put "unfair" in quotes and thus imply that the Nazi policies were mild.
I placed both in quotations because I was quoting you.
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Old 12-20-2015, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Kalamalka Lake, B.C.
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As rigorous as I am about historical authenticity, I still (having had Commonwealth relatives in the war years before it was on the American radar) still have Burt Lancasters' "The Train" on my top list of war movies, along with Das Boat and "the Great Escape".

The "real" French actors in the Lancaster film while nevertheless not liking him much, must have had some very personal stories to tell outside the parameters of the film. As media asked the Butcher of Lyon how he could manage the city with so few Gestapo he simply answered there was a line up at the door finking off the neighbours, often for personal reasons.

As Robert Vaughn said in a Bridge Too FAR, just as his own German commanders were about to shoot him: Then again, who is the enemy?
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