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Old 12-20-2015, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 1,849,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
I had the extraordinary experience of a presentation by the audio visual guy at our high school, in California when I was in eleventh grade. He was a boy in one of the major cities of the Netherlands when the Nazi tanks rolled in and the occupation began. He gave a presentation to groups where he drew in the audience to his world, and you felt as if you were there. I only wish someone had recorded his presentation. It was very different than just having someone talk about it.

He would present scenes, as if you were watching a movie but the theater was part of the story. Today, he'd say, and describe an event as you'd see it if you were there. The room was darkened, and after a short while you were. I remember one story he told of a delivery cart pulled by a horse. Food was very short and people carried a knife and a container lest they come upon some animal which might make dinner. The horse collapsed and died in the street. Suddenly, from inside apartments, pedestrians, people in stores, anyone who could get a spot, the horse was stripped to the bone in some ten minutes of feeding frenzy. People ran home to hide their food, and then someone dragged off the bones. He told it so vividly that you could see it running like a movie in your head. He didn't want his audience to take away a bunch of memories, but a sense of what it was like to live them.

He had some chilling moments. I was a blonde then. He got quiet and looked over his audience, and told ever female with blonde hair to stand. It was sooo creapy and scary to stand. Then he described the Lebensbourn. All blonde women would go there. The lights were turned off and then we could sit again. But when they had the discussion class, he was asked about it. It was still not widely known. He explained more, but I'll never forget that creepy moment.

He ended up as an older boy doing some work with the resistance. But he spoke of how it was to their advantage that most people just worried about the day, and didn't want to see anything. They didn't because they chose not to. They provided a cover for those with other plans. Perhaps they might have wished to participate, but didn't want to risk family but simply by their silence helped.

I've read memiours, but this was much more real and I think every person in the room wondered what path they would have chosen.
I happened to read an article about Lebensbourn in Norway. There was no coercion, although soldiers were encouraged to date Norwegian women and would even get a day off if they were going to spend it with their girlfriends, being implicitly told that their "duty" was to get them pregnant. Several thousand Norwegian women had affairs with German soldiers during 5 years of occupation that ended in pregnancies. This was nothing out of ordinary. However what was really chilling is the way these women and their children were treated by other Norwegians after the war. They were arrested and sent to labor camps, there were widespread beatings and even rapes, there was even a serious attempt by some Norwegian lawmakers to forcefully deport the children to Germany. I even read that the beatings and rapes of children of these affairs continued well into 1950s. A lot of them escaped to Sweden.
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:08 PM
 
1,519 posts, read 1,405,707 times
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I know that the D Day celebrations of the last 4 or 5 years have had a heavy atmosphere of revisionism. Rather than seeing the allies as liberators many people in France and attached areas view the allies as invaders that were no better, in fact much worse, than the Nazis. One lady I read about in Normandy said that allied soldiers knocked on her door and told her everyone had to get out because they were searching for Nazi soldiers. So the people obeyed and got out and when the allied soldiers entered their homes they stole everything of value that they could get their hands on. Allied soldiers were notorious for being thief's. It was a joking matter when some allies would steal something they would say they were liberating it from the people. Instead of liberating the people they were liberating what the people had. It was common.
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Old 12-20-2015, 07:57 PM
 
1,519 posts, read 1,094,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Ask Russian WWII historians. They find "French resistance" an entertaining joke. They say that the only real worth mentioning as successful guerrilla warfare in occupied Europe were Chetniks. Ruthlessly dealt with by Joseph BT after war.
The Polish Home Army was also very good. They were, however, of the wrong political orientation for Stalin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
When surrounded by wolves most people act like sheep.

I think it was far more complicated that that. Anybody considering passive and especially active resistance in WWII needed to consider a lot of variables. These variables included:

- Are the local resistance groups really interested in fighting the Germans, or are they mainly interested in suppressing local political rivals and "requisitioning" goods?

- Are the local resistance leaders competent? Or are they just going to get themselves, me and the civilian hostages the Germans are holding killed?

- The Germans, though jerks (putting it mildly), are not out to destroy our western European nation. The allies are going to win anyways. Do we need to risk more locals getting killed? Will any gain be worth our losses?

- I am 44 years old, married with three children. Is it fair to expect me to take the same risks as a 23 year old single guy with no children?

- Ok, the local resistance leaders are somewhat competent and are interested in fighting the occupiers. They also spend a lot of time promoting a socio political agenda that I don't agree with. Should I actively support them? Will they just "turn off" their agenda after the war. Or, are they going to "dial it up"?

Last edited by Cryptic; 12-20-2015 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,668,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
I happened to read an article about Lebensbourn in Norway. There was no coercion, although soldiers were encouraged to date Norwegian women and would even get a day off if they were going to spend it with their girlfriends, being implicitly told that their "duty" was to get them pregnant. Several thousand Norwegian women had affairs with German soldiers during 5 years of occupation that ended in pregnancies. This was nothing out of ordinary. However what was really chilling is the way these women and their children were treated by other Norwegians after the war. They were arrested and sent to labor camps, there were widespread beatings and even rapes, there was even a serious attempt by some Norwegian lawmakers to forcefully deport the children to Germany. I even read that the beatings and rapes of children of these affairs continued well into 1950s. A lot of them escaped to Sweden.
He was Dutch, and there they apparently did force blonde women to breed babies for them. Failure to cooperate had costs for the family. It was supposed to be a great honor in Germany. There was a documentary on the children done on PBS a long time ago, and the children did pay the price. Where there was little food, they got little or none. It's a sad reality that people needing someone to use for revenge will often not ask if their targets made choices or if others actions made them for them.

War brings out the ugly in everyone.
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Old 12-26-2015, 09:03 AM
 
24,060 posts, read 16,644,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
He was Dutch, and there they apparently did force blonde women to breed babies for them. Failure to cooperate had costs for the family. It was supposed to be a great honor in Germany. There was a documentary on the children done on PBS a long time ago, and the children did pay the price. Where there was little food, they got little or none. It's a sad reality that people needing someone to use for revenge will often not ask if their targets made choices or if others actions made them for them.

War brings out the ugly in everyone.

All over various occupied Europe it was pretty much the same regardless of who did the occupying. Women and girls in France, Germany, Norway, etc... bore heavy burdens for having *relations* with "enemy" troops and worse bearing them children. Fate of the by-blow children was not often very good either.


In Germany the fate of "Russenbabies" (children born to mothers sired by Russian military) was quite horrible. More so because many if not all these births were the by product of the mass rapes committed by mainly (but not exclusively) Russian military.


Komm Frau: Gdansk tears down statue marking rape of millions of German women by Russian soldiers | Daily Mail Online


https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...7053102AAwfBDJ


Sadly as history often proves it is females and children who bear responsibility for events they neither commenced nor could control. To this day the subject of WWII as it relates to the issue of rape, children and so forth is still largely taboo in parts of Europe and or various families.






WWII G.I. Babies: Children of the Enemy - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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