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Old 12-16-2015, 07:28 AM
 
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I don't see anybody being disgusted when schools make kids sell candy to give money to their school.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:01 AM
 
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You really didn't go far enough back.

But lets's just focus on the 1700-1800s in America.

People from the UK were routinely sending their children HERE as indentured servants to work for a period of of time to then be allowed to live here permanently.

WHY?

Because they would LITERALLY starve and die otherwise.

I think it was maybe some country western singer - maybe Reba McEntire? - who found in her ancestry on that show Who Do You THink You Are that a guy over there who had a bunch of kids became a widower and had NO OTHER CHOICE to keep them ALIVE. He sent a boy or two here and after serving his work period of many years became a successful American. It was a contract.

We used to GIVE property to people in the HOMESTEAD ACT if they promised to work it and be SELF RELIANT. And that was how many of the post-indentured people thrived. Sort of an IMMIGRATION plan.

Which is why people are OUTRAGED that all you have to do NOW is step over a border and get everything handed to you from us.

There was NO BIRTH CONTROL way back and until this day you have to wonder WHY PEOPLE CAN"T STOP PROCREATING if they can't feed their damn kids.

Unfortunately rape and other scenarios enter into the picture. Alcoholism, drugs etc

My grandmother had ONE KID. I'm pretty sure she knew how to avoid #2.

My ex lived in Greece where there was and probably still is a tremendous stray cat population. HIS JOB was to drown the stray kittens as a kid.

He played with socks rolled up in a ball for soccer balls.

You can't judge the past by today's lense is TRUE. But the recurring theme is PARENTS. How do you think they GOT THERE?

Virtual orphans. Or worse: Actually in slavery to THEIR PARENTS. It also explains part of the "BIAS" against some "people" in our history's past who would live that way. NOBODY was promised anything when they arrived at Ellis Island but they took a shot.

But it was a brief time in our history unlike OTHER PLACES where it's still going on today and WORSE - people putting their children into the sex industry.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 12-16-2015 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:11 AM
 
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They weren't horrified then for the same reason they aren't horrified now. They needed the money and if some kids got hurt or killed on the job, hey, so did some adults. It still goes on today all over the world.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runswithscissors View Post
...

We used to GIVE property to people in the HOMESTEAD ACT if they promised to work it and be SELF RELIANT. And that was how many of the post-indentured people thrived. Sort of an IMMIGRATION plan.

Which is why people are OUTRAGED that all you have to do NOW is step over a border and get everything handed to you from us.

There was NO BIRTH CONTROL way back and until this day you have to wonder WHY PEOPLE CAN"T STOP PROCREATING if they can't feed their damn kids.

...
The thing with indentured servants in the British colonies (in what became the US) - people hired on (or their parents or guardians hired them on - to serve for X number of years, for room & board, & maybe to learn a trade. They might get some small payment in cash too, @ the end of the term. If the master was too demanding, or refused to end the contract - the indentured could simply pack up & leave. Typically to the nearest good-sized town or city, to work for wages. Then to build up enough money to buy tools, gunpowder, weapon - & set out to unclaimed land to set up a cabin & farm (or trap, etc.) This unwanted mobility of labor was what made Black slaves so attractive - they couldn't blend in nearly as easily, no matter how well they learned to speak English.


Of course there was birth control back when - the wise women knew which herbs & potions would abort, & a desperate woman could run risks up to injuring herself to spontaneously abort or induce premature labor. All that knowledge (herbs & potions) was mostly eradicated as Planned Parenthood recruited doctors & institutionalized BC & abortions. & people who worked around farm animals knew perfectly well what caused pregnancy - they may not have had the benefit of a classical education, but it wasn't & isn't rocket science.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
The thing with indentured servants in the British colonies (in what became the US) - people hired on (or their parents or guardians hired them on - to serve for X number of years, for room & board, & maybe to learn a trade. They might get some small payment in cash too, @ the end of the term. If the master was too demanding, or refused to end the contract - the indentured could simply pack up & leave. Typically to the nearest good-sized town or city, to work for wages. Then to build up enough money to buy tools, gunpowder, weapon - & set out to unclaimed land to set up a cabin & farm (or trap, etc.) This unwanted mobility of labor was what made Black slaves so attractive - they couldn't blend in nearly as easily, no matter how well they learned to speak English.


Of course there was birth control back when - the wise women knew which herbs & potions would abort, & a desperate woman could run risks up to injuring herself to spontaneously abort or induce premature labor. All that knowledge (herbs & potions) was mostly eradicated as Planned Parenthood recruited doctors & institutionalized BC & abortions. & people who worked around farm animals knew perfectly well what caused pregnancy - they may not have had the benefit of a classical education, but it wasn't & isn't rocket science.
That's not really true they could pick up and leave. The courts enforced the contract. Unless they became runaways if that's what you mean. They oftentimes were even kidnapping victims. And they needed permission to do many things like marry.

Yes Reba's ancestor came over when we were still a colony at age 10 in something like 1700 or so. But I jumped ahead 100 years to the Homestead Act when we had no relationship to Britain.

I seem to remember the boy's father died right after sending the kid here and then the kid ended up being able to purchase several hundred if not eventually thousands of acres after his servitude ended - around 20 years later. I forget how long he was under contract - maybe something like 10 years.

Then he became a slave owner which was the thing that started out bothering McEntire as she went backward in her research but after digging, she found the whole story compelling and understandable.

The first Homestead Act was in 1862. Any adult who had never taken up arms against the U.S. government, could apply. Women, blacks, and immigrants were eligible. But I think immigration was on it's way to getting more limited.

It was a fascinating episode - that show is interesting.

I never said there weren't abortions. I said there was no "birth control".

And I never said people didn't know how they got pregnant. At least in the Western world. I can't speak to other places but my GUESS IS they knew too LOL. That's why I cited rape as a cause.

Having a mother who almost died in the depression and had a really crappy time of it, I've learned never to really question too many things that seem incomprehensible right now. That crap messes you up for life. Like other traumatic events. Alot of things seem inconceivable in history.

It's also very sad that our kids are completely UNEDUCATED about what really went on in history, civics, and how it's not all black and white good and bad and their entire knowledge is reduced to bumper stickers, one liners and 140 characters. And of course POLITICS which, IMO is brainwashing them and not creating critical thinkers but a generation of people requiring "safe spaces" from WORDS LOL.

Meanwhile last century 17 year olds were volunteering for military service and even patriotic. GASP.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 12-16-2015 at 01:02 PM..
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Old 12-16-2015, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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One professor of history in college was missing a couple of fingers on one hand. One of the students finally ask what happened. His family was from Pennsulvania and worked in the mines. The first job a child had was to pick ore from the slucises. Adult hands were too large to fit. Fingers often got caught in them. It wasn't considered something unexpected. And this was in the 20's and 30's. For families where he lived, it was still survival and children were expected to go to work in the jobs reserved for them, many of them dangerous, as soon as they were big enough. They went to school when the mines were closed.

The modern concept of a protected and guarenteed childhood is a very recent development. Those kids who are so pampered today may well have had a great grandparent who worked as a child, especially during the Great Depression. And its even more likely in earlier generations when school was scheduled around work.

Those children who did not work often lived very different lives than those today as well, expected to dress and act as adults, and schools stressed this in their rules. The idea of childhood being playtime and learning while playing and parents catering to their kids is a much more recent development.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:08 PM
 
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They weren't disgusted when slavery was alive and well,nor today when child sex slavery going on in our country. If one isn't directly affected they could pretend it didn't exist. Think that took place back before women were allowed to think for themselves and have any say so.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
Exactly. "Child Labor" was the norm to SURVIVE and support kids with NO Birth Control available.

Life was NOT all "Little House on the Prairie" or "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman" where the children were allowed to school and play.

In The Appalachin Mountains of Eastern Kentucky, My Great Aunt was born in 1888. SHe was married at 13 to a 16 year old husband, mother at 14, bore 14 children, NEVER learned to read or write. Land was joined at two parcels for them {arranged} to farm, he also worked the coal. He learned to 3rd grade level. She was taught basic "cyphering" {basic addition/subtraction we call it}, so she knew a few numbers to home canned {in Mason Jars} and baked goods and to make change at the store so as to NOT get cheated{very SMALL change-pennies- by today's standard...a DOLLAR was a TREASURE}.

My grandmother was the youngest of 21 children, and bore 11 of her own. She was put to work in the tobacco fields at 5, but WAS allowed to school to 6th grade, so she'd have a "better life". She and my grandfather kept a MULE for transportation! They kept a COW for milk/butter/cheese, a PIG for fattening and LARD {animal FAT}, and CHICKENS for eggs {and the occasional chicken dinner}.They grew a large one half acre garden for food to sustain them in winter and heated the drafty single wall 3 room house with coal also. To have the three rooms was a JOY..the kitchen {coal stove} was on the back porch! To complete the scene...an OUTHOUSE was a regular in the area until the 1970s!!! And water was drawn in a bucket from the dugout well.

"The Walton's" was MORE REALISTIC than LHontP & Dr. Q was. Life was HARDER in the GREAT Depression!

But I wouldn't trade those roots for anything. I LOVED the taste of fresh churned sweet butter from the cow's milk fresh from the cow, and chicken deep fried in LARD. And picking fruits and veggies for dinner and for canning was kinda "fun" for me as a child when I visited down there, but I didn't HAVE to do it to survive!

My own father in the mid west was working at age 8, and worked until 65 from retirement from a fortune top 10 company through hard work, and the GI Bill after Army for college. He NEVER had a Christmas Tree before he married Mother. He got exactly 3 presents at Christmas...underwear, socks, and a "special gift", like a watch one year at age 12. He still has it.

Ah..welcome to the "good old days". Ain't they "grand"?
Thanks for this stroll down Amnesia lane...
My dad was one of twelve brothers and sisters raised on an Alabama farm. His father was the authority figure. His mother had the babies and kept the house. He grew up working on the farm doing whatever needed doing. He did go to school, but he was the youngest boy, and when he was fifteen he left.

He wanted to make some of his own money and his dad let him have his own acre. He grew cotton and harvested it himself. Then his dad took the money. He got his mother to sign that he was sixteen and he joined the navy. He was in the Navy for 22 years and studied sufficently that when he got out he got a job as one of first generation of aerospace engineers.

Dad not only broke the pattern, he scattered it. It was years, when I was five, when we went back to see the family. They still had the farm. His mother died soon after and it was sold in parcels. But all of his brothers ended up going into equivalants of dad's aerospace job. He worked on the Apollo flights. He had nephews who also worked in aerospace.

My mom and aunt would take the kids, me and my three cousins, with a pop up camper and spend a weekend or a week camping. Dad wasn't interested, he'd had enough of it. My uncle's family picked potatoes and he grew up doing that. He wasn't either.

A generation before they'd have had children who also grew up working the land from the time they could. We aren't so far from then as we like to think.

But time *did* change. My dad and uncle's parents came before then, and it was what you did. My grandfather was honored to have such a large farm. My uncle didn't wonder if he should be picking a field as a child. But eventually they did and they were determined their kids would have better. I think this is part of how things change. Each generation tries their best but lives what the world is used to until that changes. But when it does it doesn't go back.

What doesn't work for me is 'judging' past generations without any idea what life expected of them. No doubt our descendents will have a lot of unkind things to say about us, about things we fine perfectly all right. Does that mean we lack their wisdom or we were not raised in their world and taught what they were?
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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My five x great grandfather lived in what would become London. He was a serf. Since the records of the local church were put in the ones collected for London, I can actually find records of the next seven generations. His family became skilled tradesmen, and owned their own strips. I'm sure they considered themselves quite successful. The three villages eventually merged. The era of sheep arrived, and they estate was enclosed, and they went back to being just labor. His mother's generation saw the city of London approach and when she was still alive, annex the area.

He and his brother were theives in the east end. They ended up in court, and he talked his way into a indenture as a convict over death. His brother and he were shipped to Maryland on a slave ship, the first three offically ships in 1719 of Britan's new policy for emptying the prisons. They were sold to a planter in Maryland. But he and his brother both eventually married, and became successful farmers. My great 5x grandfather died at 91 on his son's farm. His brother's family established themselves in Kentucky.

The journey there was literally the same as those taken as slaves, and convicts were considered 'lesser' and generally treated worse than other indentured work. His or his brother's life were certainly not easy. But I'll bet if he considered it as an old man, he would have seen it as a hard and mean, but also a journey to a life for himself and his family which would never have been on the hard streets of East London. Who knows seven generations later where we'd be.

That's the thing. Sometimes events in life are hard and mean and by today's standards unacceptable. But that journey led to something new and chances impossible in the place they'd been. We can say that this or that practice was terrible by OUR view, but sometimes it was a win/lose. Many lost. But some were able to jump to a better road. My five x great grandfather no doubt suffered terribly, but in the end when the dice was rolled he ended up with a life he could never have imagined.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
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The U.S. was just transitioning from a agricultural to an industrial society. The changes moved faster than many people realized and before you knew it... there were problems like child labor. On a farm, child labor is different.

There WERE people concerned - the Progressive reformers of the era spoke quite often against child labor.
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