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Old 12-22-2015, 09:24 AM
 
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In the immediate future; "How could we ever think using fossil fuels was a good idea?"
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
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When I was a kid in the 1980's I honestly felt understimulated & restless. I had so much energy & functional potential, I would have ENJOYED & APPRECIATED being required to work & feel useful & productive. Would certainly learn a lot more in the real world than sitting at hard desks with kids' noses in books all day.

There's nothing wrong with child labor as long as conditions are safe & humane. Kids are full of energy & competence. USA is so scared of the past that they don't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. We've learned from our past, let's move forward. Child labor is a valuable, useful asset for kids & adults alike.

My own kids, being raised by their dad now and I'm powerless over their daily details, spend all their free time with their noses glued to computer & tv screens. It makes me ill. My kids are intelligent & capable, and surely not alone in this "screen" epidemic among children. Extracurricular activities have huge price tags, so lots of kids end up like mine, in front of screens. They have so much untapped potential! Put them to work! Lovingly & humanely of course. They will benefit in building their character, their experiences, their skills, their sense of accomplishment...

And maybe if work is once again expected of kids, it won't take 3-4 decades for them to become adults, as we've seen happening to plenty of Americans the past couple generations.
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:07 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Default Baby steps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
In the immediate future; "How could we ever think using fossil fuels was a good idea?"
As a transitional phase, it isn't a bad idea. But we've been stuck there for some time, as witness the way coal interests have captured local & state & some federal representation. Natural gas is better, it burns more cleanly. Oil & products are relatively easy to transport - but oil brings its own set of rent seekers & organizations seeking to institutionalize temporary arrangements & political power to enforce those arrangements.


Still, these forms of energy - even nuclear - are basically ways to capture solar energy. Biological capture is still much more efficient that our technological methods, but still. @ some point, we'll likely build antennae to capture solar energy directly, in orbit; & transmit it down to the surface or wherever it's needed. Then we'll be able to leave fossil fuels in the ground, & not worry about polluting the soil, air & water with combustion products. The sooner the better.


We need to be able to supply our allies & ration supplies of energy to our enemies. Saudi Arabia, for one, directly supports Wahhabi Islam, a toxic radical Islam that is an avowed enemy of the West. The sooner we can defang Wahhabi, the better. In a kind of protection racket, the Saudi government buys off the Wahhabis, & underwrites their exportation of doctrine, Korans, other literature & imams to madrassas around the World, the better to exploit the lack of educational infrastructure in much of the Islamic World, & to recruit foot soldiers to their cause.
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Old 12-22-2015, 12:26 PM
 
2,634 posts, read 2,537,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
As a transitional phase, it isn't a bad idea. But we've been stuck there for some time, as witness the way coal interests have captured local & state & some federal representation. Natural gas is better, it burns more cleanly. Oil & products are relatively easy to transport - but oil brings its own set of rent seekers & organizations seeking to institutionalize temporary arrangements & political power to enforce those arrangements.


Still, these forms of energy - even nuclear - are basically ways to capture solar energy. Biological capture is still much more efficient that our technological methods, but still. @ some point, we'll likely build antennae to capture solar energy directly, in orbit; & transmit it down to the surface or wherever it's needed. Then we'll be able to leave fossil fuels in the ground, & not worry about polluting the soil, air & water with combustion products. The sooner the better.


We need to be able to supply our allies & ration supplies of energy to our enemies. Saudi Arabia, for one, directly supports Wahhabi Islam, a toxic radical Islam that is an avowed enemy of the West. The sooner we can defang Wahhabi, the better. In a kind of protection racket, the Saudi government buys off the Wahhabis, & underwrites their exportation of doctrine, Korans, other literature & imams to madrassas around the World, the better to exploit the lack of educational infrastructure in much of the Islamic World, & to recruit foot soldiers to their cause.
Agreed with everything. It's way time to get past fossil fuels and I believe the technology is there now. I think in 15 years the transition will be largely done, without us noticing anything much, other than the political circuses.
Agreed on Saudi Arabia & Wahhabi: the sooner we take down the oil price to <$10 the better for the world. Iran was never the issue, S.A. is.
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Old 12-23-2015, 06:41 AM
 
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I didn't read the whole thread, but does the OP know that in a alot of the rest of the world, Child Labor still is very much a big thing?

Don't judge the past, it was done out of necessity.

Kids today are a bunch of spoiled wimps, so i'm thinking maybe a few months in a coal mine would do them some good
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:00 AM
 
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Children had to work so their families could survive. If everyone didn't work there wouldn't be enough. Same for old people. No working till 62 and retiring. If you physically could, you worked.

There were no schools, practically speaking, until the early 19 century. So what were the kids going to do? Sit around and watch "Sesame Street"?

Even when public schools became more common they were established for different reasons. Prussia was the first European county to mandate education: for boys, so they would be better soldiers. Able to read maps, road signs, equipment manuals, that sort of thing. In the US public schooling was started in many places so kids wouldn't compete for jobs with their parents.

I doubt child labor was as bad as it's commonly depicted. A common phrase in New England textiles mills was, "We employ three so that two may work." Generally employers were not heartless slave drivers. They were people just like us in the most important ways: some were caring, others indifferent. Some bad, others almost saintly. Many of the New England textile towns mandated church attendance and otherwise looked out for the moral development of their people.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:15 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Default Please, sir, may I have another?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...st_child_labor


"It took the Great Depression to end child labor nationwide; adults had become so desperate for jobs that they would work for the same wage as children.[5] In 1938, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Fair Labor Standards Act, which, among other things, placed limits on many forms of child labor. However, The 1938 labor law giving protections to working children excludes agriculture. As a result approximately 500,000 children pick almost a quarter of the food currently produced in the United States.[6]


"In 1994 the Arkansas state Federation of Labor placed a child welfare initiative on the ballot prohibiting child labor, which the voters passed.[7]


"Human rights organizations have documented child labor in USA. According to a 2009 petition by Human Rights Watch: "Hundreds of thousands of children are employed as farm workers in the United States, often working 10 or more hours a day. They are often exposed to dangerous pesticides, experience high rates of injury, and suffer fatalities at five times the rate of other working youth. Their long hours contribute to alarming drop-out rates. Government statistics show that barely half ever finish high school. According to the National Safety Council, agriculture is the second most dangerous occupation in the United States. However, current US child labor laws allow child farm workers to work longer hours, at younger ages, and under more hazardous conditions than other working youths. While children in other sectors must be 12 to be employed and cannot work more than 3 hours on a school day, in agriculture, children can work at age 12 for unlimited hours before and after school." "


(My emphasis - more @ the URL)


There were schools before the 19th century in the US - the public schools may have only gone to 5th or 6th grade, I'd have to look. The issue during the Depression was that children were only paid a percentage of what an adult man was paid, & during the Depression, adults were willing to work for that. If the wages of children were the difference between starving & eating, that was one thing. But children's wages then were just a pittance. & even then, wages that low - for adult or child - weren't enough to feed a family.


So children were removed from the work force - except for agriculture.
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:24 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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OP, way back when, childhood wasn't regarded as a separate status from adulthood. Children were considered miniature adults. The idea that children are small and helpless and dependent on adults wasn't "invented" until around the 20th Century, at least for the working classes. Maybe the kids of the elite were considered precious, but that was a luxury. The idea that kids should be a protected class simply hadn't occurred to anyone.

Similarly, the concept of "teen-ager" and the idea that adolescence was a special stage in life with its own psychology and needs wasn't invented until around the middle of the 20th Century.

In the old days (which still exist in developing countries), poor families regarded their kids as assets in that they could go out and earn some money to help put food on the table and pay the rent. To not take advantage of that asset would not only have been regarded as foolish, but it could have been fatal to the family. Survival is paramount. Parents did what they had to do for the survival of the family, even if it meant sending their kids to dangerous workplaces.

Thank heaven things have improved, but there's still a long way to go in many parts of the world. Do your part to bring about positive change for those less fortunate than yourself. Get involved to end child trafficking.
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Old 12-23-2015, 04:44 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Default Data

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Children had to work so their families could survive. If everyone didn't work there wouldn't be enough. Same for old people. No working till 62 and retiring. If you physically could, you worked.

There were no schools, practically speaking, until the early 19 century. So what were the kids going to do? Sit around and watch "Sesame Street"?

...

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educat...States#History


"History[edit]

"Main article: History of education in the United States


"Government-supported and free public schools for all began to be established after the American Revolution. Between 1750 and 1870 parochial schools appeared as "ad hoc" efforts by parishes. Historically, many parochial elementary schools were developed which were open to all children in the parish, mainly Catholics, but also Lutherans, Calvinists and Orthodox Jews. Nonsectarian Common schools designed by Horace Mann were opened, which taught the three Rs (of reading, writing, and arithmetic) and also history and geography.


"In 1823, Reverend Samuel Read Hall founded the first normal school, the Columbian School in Concord, Vermont,[11][12] to improve the quality of the burgeoning common school system by producing more qualified teachers.


"States passed laws to make schooling compulsory between 1852 (Massachusetts) and 1917 (Mississippi). They also used federal funding designated by the Morrill Land-Grant Colleges Acts of 1862 and 1890 to set up land grant colleges specializing in agriculture and engineering. By 1870, every state had free elementary schools,[13] albeit only in urban centers.

...


"Responding to many competing academic philosophies being promoted at the time, an influential working group of educators, known as the Committee of Ten, and established in 1892 by the National Education Association, recommended that children should receive twelve years of instruction, consisting of eight years of elementary education (also known as "grammar schools") followed by four years in high school ("freshmen," "sophomores," "juniors," and "seniors").


"Gradually by the late 1890s, regional associations of high schools, colleges and universities were being organized to coordinate proper accrediting standards, examinations and regular surveys of various institutions to assure equal treatment in graduation and admissions requirements, course completion and transfer procedures.


"By 1910, 72 percent of children attended school. Private schools spread during this time, as well as colleges and — in the rural centers — land grant colleges also. Between 1910 and 1940 the high school movement resulted in rapidly increasing public high school enrollment and graduations. By 1930, 100 percent of children attended school[citation needed] (excluding children with significant disabilities or medical concerns).[14]"


(My emphasis - More @ the URL)


It took time for schools to be established in the rural areas - but the cities (except possibly the pre-Civil War South) set up schools early on.
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Old 12-24-2015, 12:49 PM
 
3,871 posts, read 2,137,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educat...States#History


"History[edit]

"Main article: History of education in the United States


"Government-supported and free public schools for all began to be established after the American Revolution. Between 1750 and 1870 parochial schools appeared as "ad hoc" efforts by parishes. Historically, many parochial elementary schools were developed which were open to all children in the parish, mainly Catholics, but also Lutherans, Calvinists and Orthodox Jews. Nonsectarian Common schools designed by Horace Mann were opened, which taught the three Rs (of reading, writing, and arithmetic) and also history and geography.


"In 1823, Reverend Samuel Read Hall founded the first normal school, the Columbian School in Concord, Vermont,[11][12] to improve the quality of the burgeoning common school system by producing more qualified teachers.


"States passed laws to make schooling compulsory between 1852 (Massachusetts) and 1917 (Mississippi). They also used federal funding designated by the Morrill Land-Grant Colleges Acts of 1862 and 1890 to set up land grant colleges specializing in agriculture and engineering. By 1870, every state had free elementary schools,[13] albeit only in urban centers.

...


"Responding to many competing academic philosophies being promoted at the time, an influential working group of educators, known as the Committee of Ten, and established in 1892 by the National Education Association, recommended that children should receive twelve years of instruction, consisting of eight years of elementary education (also known as "grammar schools") followed by four years in high school ("freshmen," "sophomores," "juniors," and "seniors").


"Gradually by the late 1890s, regional associations of high schools, colleges and universities were being organized to coordinate proper accrediting standards, examinations and regular surveys of various institutions to assure equal treatment in graduation and admissions requirements, course completion and transfer procedures.


"By 1910, 72 percent of children attended school. Private schools spread during this time, as well as colleges and — in the rural centers — land grant colleges also. Between 1910 and 1940 the high school movement resulted in rapidly increasing public high school enrollment and graduations. By 1930, 100 percent of children attended school[citation needed] (excluding children with significant disabilities or medical concerns).[14]"


(My emphasis - More @ the URL)


It took time for schools to be established in the rural areas - but the cities (except possibly the pre-Civil War South) set up schools early on.
I believe that qualifies as the early 19th Century. Mandatory attendance came later.

Also in the 19th Century most people worked on farms. Of their own or on others. As had been done since time immemorial, their children worked alongside of them. Child farm labor has been the norm for human society since there was human society. There was nothing to be disgusted about.
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