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Old 12-09-2010, 10:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cushla View Post
Not to mention allies and the U.S. needs them too.
You are quite right, my bad (that's two ).

Last edited by ovcatto; 12-09-2010 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
The handlers of the treasonous piece of garbage FDR would not have allowed it. The whole point of goading Japan into war was to give the U.S. a pretext for war in Europe, to further fuel the military industrial complex and fulfill a few other agendas.
Politics and Controversies is next door.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,444 posts, read 23,877,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
The handlers of the treasonous piece of garbage FDR would not have allowed it. The whole point of goading Japan into war was to give the U.S. a pretext for war in Europe, to further fuel the military industrial complex and fulfill a few other agendas.

Japan didn't need any "goading" into war. Japan had BEEN at war already for well over a decade at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. They were militant and expansionist and MORE than willing to go to war to take what they wanted. The Chinese already knew that.

Ken
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
The handlers of the treasonous piece of garbage FDR would not have allowed it. The whole point of goading Japan into war was to give the U.S. a pretext for war in Europe, to further fuel the military industrial complex and fulfill a few other agendas.

Aside from the unsportsmanlike characterization of FDR, the point made by Visit is not without merit in suggesting that we goaded Japan. American policy was already in place that could have been predicted to inflame the Japanese into some kind of retaliation. Namely, the oil blockade to Japan, and the stationing of our entire Pacific attack capability in the center of an ocean to which Japan had designs as legitimate as our own.

And indeed, the highly profitable military-industrial complex did in fact become a very permanent and potent reality, spurred by the European war, and that, too, could have been predicted.

While the word "pretext" cannot be proven, it is certainly easy to retrofit it into the historical perspective.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-09-2010 at 11:23 AM..
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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[quote=nightbird47;16939192]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Considering that in Zweites Buch, Hitler's expansion on Mein Kampf, Hilter spells out a starkly different scenario of not only world conquest but an an inevitable face off against the U.S. In short your argument is rather groundless.

I believe it is in the last part of Ken Burn's documentary "The War" that one of the men from one of the towns its based on said something which truely defines the depth of Hitlers plans.

The Americans were guarding German prisoners, late in 44 or early 45. One asked one of them, in perfect English, where he was from. He answered, giving the name of his small town. The German asked if it was near one of the local landmarks. The soldier, rather suprised as only someone who knew the place would know it, said no, and more questions singled out just where in the area he lived.

The soldier asked how he knew the area so well. The German said he was being trained for the eventual occupation forces of that area.

I think Hitler had a great many plans and places he was interested in which did not occur, but if men were being trained to know the topography of a little Minnesota town they were quite serious about the idea they would need occupation forces.
even japan was fearful of invading mainland america Yamamoto even said:

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
Remember that the entire 1941-1942 south pacific campaign was accomplished with only 10 divisions. The rest of the Japanese army was in China or facing the Soviets. Also the Japanese navy and merchant fleet was incredibly over extended in the south Pacific
and not capable of supplying let alone transporting a major attack over such a long distance same with the germans at the time the US and canada had a huge naval force so with blockades they could not supply their troops and we had factories pumping out tanks, military aircraft and supplies on a massive scale and we had all the resources

Last edited by GTOlover; 12-09-2010 at 12:02 PM..
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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The question of spreading too thin cuts both ways. The US had difficulty enough fighting a world war on two fronts. At the same time, neither Germany nor Japan could have maintained an occupation of vast expanses of hostile territory on their own continents and at the same time carried out the offensive necessary to gain a well defended and fortified America. For that reason, America was under little genuine peril. The wars were tactical options, not imperatives.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The fact that Germany declared war on us did not compel us to declare war on them, nor even take a belligerent posture against them. Only to take prudent measures to defend our shores against them, and the Atlantic Ocean gave us a buffer that we could rely on for quite a bit of early defense.
For some, being slapped down repeatedly isn't enough to get them to stop. In such extreme situations, the only defense is the removal of the attacker's ability to attack. If that means eliminating them, then it does.

"Hurting you isn't the first thing on my list...but it's still on there."
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japanese001 View Post
Japanese soil air raid
It is not written on English one in detail.
日本本土空襲 - Wikipedia

Yalta secret agreement
It is not written on English one in detail.
ヤルタ会談 - Wikipedia

A Japanese division rule plan
There is not English.
æ—¥æœ¬ã®åˆ†å‰²çµ±æ²»è¨ ç”» - Wikipedia
Interesting pictures. I wish this was translated.
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Old 12-09-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Here is a timeline of all the formal declarations of war up to the end of 1941, which I distilled down from a more expansive list of actions:

1939
September 1 Germany invades Poland.
September 3 Great Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany
September 6 The Union of South Africa declares war on Germany.
September 10 Canada declares war on Germany.
1940
April 8 Norway declares war on Germany.
June 10 Italy declares war on France and Great Britain.
June 11 France declares war on Italy.
November 23 Belgium declares war on Italy.
1941
April 6 Italy declares war on Yugoslavia.
April 24 Bulgaria declares war on Greece, Hungary and Yugoslavia.
June 22 Germany, Italy, Romania and Bulgaria declare war on the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
June 25 Finland declares war on the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
June 27 Hungary declares war on the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
July 7 Iceland occupied by the United States. (I thought this was particularly interesting, so I left it in.)
December 6 Finland and Romania declare war on Great Britain.
December 7 Japan declares war on the United States of America, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa.
Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Finland, Hungary and Romania.
Canada declares war on Finland, Hungary, Japan and Romania.
Panama declares war on Japan.
December 8 The United States of America, Great Britain, Australia, Costa Rica, The Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Nicaragua declare war on Japan.
The Union of South Africa declares war on Finland, Hungary, Japan and Romania.
Free French National Council declares war on Germany.
Manchukuo declares war on the United States.
December 9 China declares war with Germany, Italy and Japan.
Cuba and Guatemala declare war on Japan.
December 11 Germany and Italy declare war on the United States of America.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Aside from the unsportsmanlike characterization of FDR, the point made by Visit is not without merit in suggesting that we goaded Japan. American policy was already in place that could have been predicted to inflame the Japanese into some kind of retaliation. Namely, the oil blockade to Japan, and the stationing of our entire Pacific attack capability in the center of an ocean to which Japan had designs as legitimate as our own.
If you start the story in the middle instead of at the beginning, the whole thing gets twisted and skewed. Let's ask ourselves why we instituted an oil and scrap metal blockade against Japan. It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression in Manchuria and in China. And to call the stationing of naval forces at Pearl Harbor a provocation is more than mildly absurd. Pearl Harbor had been American territory for quite a while already in 1941.
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