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Old 12-09-2010, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,691,811 times
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[quote=GTOlover;16944284]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
even japan was fearful of invading mainland america Yamamoto even said:

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”
Remember that the entire 1941-1942 south pacific campaign was accomplished with only 10 divisions. The rest of the Japanese army was in China or facing the Soviets. Also the Japanese navy and merchant fleet was incredibly over extended in the south Pacific
and not capable of supplying let alone transporting a major attack over such a long distance same with the germans at the time the US and canada had a huge naval force so with blockades they could not supply their troops and we had factories pumping out tanks, military aircraft and supplies on a massive scale and we had all the resources
My origional reply was about Germany's plans, not the practicality of them. Obviously if your training soldiers to occupy local bits of American soil your thinking you will, and have some kind of plan. This doesn't say that it will happen or that its even practical.

The reality is that our greatest danger to ourselves IS ourselves. To take over the US means taking over a continent with tall mountains and severe weather in the winter. And regardless of what we see now, if someone else was standing on our soil people would wake. Not all but you don't need all. Practically, taking a part of the coast is more of a possibility. But then you have a LONG border to defend and a lot of resources on the other side of it to be used against you.

Japan would have, if they could, taken Hawaii and the islands inbetween but they knew that physically invading the US would be unlikely to succeed. What they would have done was send many of the ballonbombs which killed a family in Oregon in I think 1942. They had plans to send these silent bringers of death in the winds with not only bombs but plagues. They tested them in Mancuria. There are places in China where to this day disease is still prevelant that the Japanese brought.

So we would not have a pass, but it would be a different sort of attack that would have been MUCH harder and more random to fight.

I have the collectors edition of Red Dawn (yes I know, a movie, but bear with me) and the method of invasion was considered quite carefully. The attack was launched through Mexico. They got the east but were stopped in the west by topography. If anyone were to try a land invasion it would most likely end up this way. Its like trying to "take" Africa. You can get a swath but not all.

During the cold war that was what was so scary. The only way of really destroying us was abombs. Silent and instant and inesscabable. Fortunately too scarry for any of the potential parties to ever try.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 77,759,149 times
Reputation: 36299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
If you start the story in the middle instead of at the beginning, the whole thing gets twisted and skewed. Let's ask ourselves why we instituted an oil and scrap metal blockade against Japan. It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression in Manchuria and in China. And to call the stationing of naval forces at Pearl Harbor a provocation is more than mildly absurd. Pearl Harbor had been American territory for quite a while already in 1941.
So, you admit that the US went to war against Japan using the same phony subterfuge that led us to the war against Iraq, and it had nothing to do with defending the USA at all, we were just goading them for a pretext to attack them. I have to agree with you there.

American acquisition of Hawaiian Islands is one of the most shameful exercises in US territorial expansion, and were inhabited by more civilians of Japanese than American extraction (if you want to go back to the beginning). And the Japanese were very cognizant of the fact that virtually the entire Pacific Fleet had just months before been deployed to an island poised in the center of the contentious ocean for the sole purpose of staging our punitive missions against Japan.

What would you be saying today, if it had been the Japanese who seized Hawaii in the 19th century, and were using it as a staging base for punitive attacks against the US for what we were doing to the Indians?
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,017 posts, read 18,722,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
So, you admit that the US went to war against Japan using the same phony subterfuge that led us to the war against Iraq, and it had nothing to do with defending the USA at all, we were just goading them for a pretext to attack them. I have to agree with you there.

American acquisition of Hawaiian Islands is one of the most shameful exercises in US territorial expansion, and were inhabited by more civilians of Japanese than American extraction (if you want to go back to the beginning). And the Japanese were very cognizant of the fact that virtually the entire Pacific Fleet had just months before been deployed to an island poised in the center of the contentious ocean for the sole purpose of staging our punitive missions against Japan.

What would you be saying today, if it had been the Japanese who seized Hawaii in the 19th century, and were using it as a staging base for punitive attacks against the US for what we were doing to the Indians?
Either you are putting words into my mouth for the fun of it or you don't know how to read. There was no phony subtrefuge involved in our going to war against Japan. We were not goading them for a pretext to attack them. How we acquired Hawaii has nothing to do with this. You should start your own thread if you want to discuss it. Ditto for Iraq. We had no punitive missions planned against Japan; rather, we recognized Japan for what it was - a dangerous aggressor - and had plans to defend our own possessions in the Pacific if the need arose.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 77,759,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Either you are putting words into my mouth for the fun of it or you don't know how to read. There was no phony subtrefuge involved in our going to war against Japan. We were not goading them for a pretext to attack them. How we acquired Hawaii has nothing to do with this. You should start your own thread if you want to discuss it. Ditto for Iraq. We had no punitive missions planned against Japan; rather, we recognized Japan for what it was - a dangerous aggressor - and had plans to defend our own possessions in the Pacific if the need arose.

I didn't put those words in your mouth. Is this a punitive mission, or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression in Manchuria and in China.

If that's why we attacked Japan, why didn't we just say so? Because, like in Iraq, we had no faith in the virtue of our resolve, and had to invent phony subterfuge and pretext to do it.

And stop demanding that people start a whole new thread if they want to draw a comparison between your own scenario and another one that is more easily grasped.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,017 posts, read 18,722,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I didn't put those words in your mouth. Is that a punitive mission, or not?

If that's why we attacked Japan, why didn't we just say so? Because, like in Iraq, we had no faith in the virtue of our resolve, and had to invent phony subterfuge and pretext to do it.
My words which you quoted ("It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression against Manchuria and China") were words that I wrote, but I did not write that that was "why we attacked Japan". We attacked Japan because Japan attacked us. An oil embargo is not the same as an attack.

The Japanese leadership of the period 1931 to 1945, now all dead of course as is our leadership of that period, would be happy to know that you have appointed yourself their attorney and advocate. Despite their brutality and viciousness (just check with any Chinese sources on that, for example), you wish to twist things around so that the United States becomes the unreasonable party.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,017 posts, read 18,722,705 times
Reputation: 32426
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I didn't put those words in your mouth. Is this a punitive mission, or not?
Clearly it is not! Making plans to defend our own possessions is not a punitive mission. How do you come up with that bit of illogic?
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:37 AM
 
2,245 posts, read 3,746,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Aside from the unsportsmanlike characterization of FDR, the point made by Visit is not without merit in suggesting that we goaded Japan. American policy was already in place that could have been predicted to inflame the Japanese into some kind of retaliation. Namely, the oil blockade to Japan, and the stationing of our entire Pacific attack capability in the center of an ocean to which Japan had designs as legitimate as our own.

And indeed, the highly profitable military-industrial complex did in fact become a very permanent and potent reality, spurred by the European war, and that, too, could have been predicted.

While the word "pretext" cannot be proven, it is certainly easy to retrofit it into the historical perspective.
Furthermore, the U.S. froze all its Japanese assets after Japan took possession of Manchuria to protect themselves from Russia. At the time, of course, Western nations still had colonies throughout the world. To quote a Japanese diplomat "Just when we learn how to play poker, they change the game to bridge."
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,236 posts, read 42,850,735 times
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Jtur, I agree that we goaded them into attacking us.Roosevelt knew that the American citizenry were isolationists, and that he needed a spark to light the powder keg.
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,444 posts, read 23,877,980 times
Reputation: 7550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Couldn't rep you again (too soon), so I will say thanks in the open forum.
Right on on all counts!
Yeah, it just cracks me up when these NAZI & Japanese apologists used the lame excuse that "Japan & Germany were only doing the same thing America, Britain & the other 19th century colonizers were doing 50 or 100 years earlier" - when the fact is that "that was wrong too". The fact that other nations (including us) have done things that were wrong does NOT make what Japan & Germany did any more RIGHT. If such posters want to complain about the things we have done WRONG they can certainly DO SO - but it makes NO SENSE whatsoever to say "well, because YOU did something wrong, THEY should be allowed to do something wrong as well".

The fact is, the US - and ALL NATIONS - has done plenty of things that were wrong (that IS human nature afterall), but NONE of that makes what someone else did wrong suddenly RIGHT. The fact is, we should have been slapped down when WE did things wrong (as we STILL should when we STILL do things wrong) and Japan needed to be slapped down when IT was doing things wrong.

If folks want to criticise the US they should do so for the things we did WRONG - NOT for the things we did RIGHT.
Arguing that it's OK to do evil because OTHERS have done (or even still are doing) evil is simply taking the side of EVIL.

Ken
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 77,759,149 times
Reputation: 36299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
My words which you quoted ("It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression against Manchuria and China") were words that I wrote, but I did not write that that was "why we attacked Japan". We attacked Japan because Japan attacked us. An oil embargo is not the same as an attack.

.
The operative question at that point in the discussion was whether we had goaded Japan into a warlike posture against us. You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Let's ask ourselves why we instituted an oil and scrap metal blockade against Japan. It was because of naked and brutal Japanese aggression in Manchuria and in China. .
Exactly how would a scrap metal blockade magically make Manchuria safe from Japanese brutality? What then was the blockade intended to accomplish? There was a Method in our madness, we wanted to destroy Japan, maybe partly for the reasons you just named. So we imposed economic sanctions against them and parked our entire Pacific fleet on their doorstep, guns aimed west, and you now want to act surprised that they responded with military aggression.

You want to say we were forced into war by a drive-by shooting at a patently offensive military target, but they were not forced into war by our transparent and ongoing interference with their designs in their own part of the world. I'm willing to agree to disagree with you on the principle, but the US has sure hell started the firing in hot wars over much flimsier pretexts than a scrap metal blockade..

Last edited by jtur88; 12-10-2010 at 05:12 PM..
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