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Old 01-16-2016, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Texas
38,180 posts, read 21,194,381 times
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So, is anyone surprised that they're trying to portray themselves as "good guys?"

With the well documented record of atrocities by the Germans in WW2, of course they're going to resort to every form of deflection possible.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,576 posts, read 7,762,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
There was a thread about this topic a few months back I think. Now, some German soldiers truly did not understand the issues they were fighting for. But it's amazing in that, now, it seems ALL of the elderly soldiers and German's still alive from that era - they all had no idea, they were all against Hitler, they all either played an innocent role in the war role and/or were fighting communism. And you talk to 1st and 2nd generations of Germans, all of which are collectively staunch anti-Nazi and condemn the actions of the 3rd Reich...well on a personal level ALL of there grandfathers and families just all happened to be anti-Nazi and anti-Hitler. What a coincidence. All the country was guilty EXCEPT there own family.
People rationalize.

The wartime experience of soldiers is usually the most intensely emotional thing they will ever experience, and it generally occurs when they are of an impressionable age. They are faced with accepting that they were agents in a mission of evil, or absolving themselves of that guilt. Most choose the latter. And this certainly is not limited to Germans of World War II. It's similar to the way Germans mythologized the First World War, convincing themselves that they were on the verge of victory until the national leadership sabotaged it all. In this way, they validate the service of those in uniform as being towards a worthy cause and not a hopeless one. There's a large contingent in the United States that deals similarly with the Vietnam War, insisting it was winnable, insisting that it stopped communism, pretending that the Vietcong had any interest beyond Vietnam (and completely misunderstanding communism as some sort of international monolith, when any look at Stalin and Trotsky, the border war between the USSR and China in 1968, the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1979, and numerous other examples of communist-on-communist violence, shows that it was anything but). Or saluting the actions of Lieutenant Calley. Again, why? Because soldiers, and their loved ones and friends, cannot deal with the fact that they died and bled and suffered for no good cause at best, for a bad or evil one at worst. So they make up stories to tell themselves and make themselves feel better. They rationalize.

I'm sure many Soviet veterans of the Afghan campaign in the 70s and 80s do the same thing. I've certainly heard some veterans of the recent Iraq do so, insisting that there really were 'vast stockpiles of WMD'. They're coping. They're trying to give the deaths of their buddies meaning. They're trying to justify going through what has left them with PTSD, or with a prosthetic limb, or with a ruined marriage because they came back as someone other than the person their spouse married.

As I wrote before, the denialism is very predictable. Right? No, certainly not. But it is typical human behavior.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:58 PM
 
3,299 posts, read 2,017,082 times
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Originally Posted by Enigma83 View Post
https://www.facebook.com/13860286583...6447078678098/

Not one ounce of guilt! I love it! Defended Europe from the Bolsheviks and history will revenge them one day and set the record straight! Love it at the end LOL...Enjoy.I surely did. Got my blood pumping with pride!
Gee what an interesting FaceBook page, particularly the holocaust denial video.

Is that what you're about?
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:39 PM
 
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Stalin had the right idea about shooting 90,000 German officers. Those Germans never did pay a price for the mass murder they caused throughout Europe.
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Old 02-19-2016, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by totsuka View Post
Stalin had the right idea about shooting 90,000 German officers. Those Germans never did pay a price for the mass murder they caused throughout Europe.
On that note, despite my usually steadfast belief in the rule of law, I applaud Gen Patton for dismissing all charges against any and all members of the 157th Infantry Regiment, 45th Infantry Division, Seventh United States Army, who were involved or might have been involved in the summary execution of SS guards on the day they liberated Dachau! Immediately faced with the overwhelming scope of the atrocities committed by the men they held in custody, only the angels could be expected to not rain unmerciful judgement upon them - of course that it also speaks of the exemplary character of those who did not participate.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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The Nazis came into being on the jointly shared premise that Germany had not been defeated in WW I, rather it was the "stab in the back" by..fill in the usual targets...Jews, industrialists, communists.

It would seem unsurprising that after losing for a second time while fighting under the banner of "master race", they would once more resort to excuses to justify the misery they inflicted on so many for so long.

What we are seeing here is another version of the unreconstructed rebels "Lost Cause" mythology which followed the Confederate defeat.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What we are seeing here is another version of the unreconstructed rebels "Lost Cause" mythology which followed the Confederate defeat.
At Cornell University the honors dorm was named after the Baron Von Cramm, while attending a party there I noticed this Bavarian portrait of this idealized blond aryan with a brass plate on the bottom of the frame that noted his name, date of birth and death which as noted was the winter of 1941! And I said to myself, "self, he died in 1941! Who is this Nazi that they named a dorm at Cornell University after??"

Well in the 1950's "friends" of the good Baron decided to honor the dorm after their class mate because, he died in the war against Communism! Died in the war against communism, ah wasn't 1941 the year the Nazi's were fighting WWII on the eastern front!

Apparently his "friends" in the height of the Cold War thought, quite correctly, that by describing this Nazi as just a fallen warrior in the battle against communism he deserved a place of recognition on one of the nations most prestigious colleges, one that was long dedicated to a diverse student body. It is simply amazing what one can do to rehabilitate a reputation by giving them the cloak of anti-communist as it if absolves one of all sins.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:07 AM
 
Location: SouthEast
166 posts, read 191,742 times
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Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
People rationalize.

The wartime experience of soldiers is usually the most intensely emotional thing they will ever experience, and it generally occurs when they are of an impressionable age. They are faced with accepting that they were agents in a mission of evil, or absolving themselves of that guilt. Most choose the latter. And this certainly is not limited to Germans of World War II.


I've certainly heard some veterans of the recent Iraq do so, insisting that there really were 'vast stockpiles of WMD'. They're coping. They're trying to give the deaths of their buddies meaning. They're trying to justify going through what has left them with PTSD, or with a prosthetic limb, or with a ruined marriage because they came back as someone other than the person their spouse married.

As I wrote before, the denialism is very predictable. Right? No, certainly not. But it is typical human behavior.
I had a long response typed to this but instead I'll just offer this. What you see as denialism is the truth to many. You obviously have your mind made up and choose to see it as such.


Soldiers today are much more informed and much more intelligent than the average citizen. Most of us, yes a vast majority of us, simply live our lives. We are not damaged and full of rage and PTSD, please don't try to characterize us all as such. Its simply not true. There is a perspective on life that anyone who has never been in actual combat will never know.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dr. Evil View Post
What you see as denialism is the truth to many.
A distinction without a difference. I am sure that there were German soldiers who like in every war, saw it as an opportunity for adventure and glory, I am sure that there were German soldiers who fought because the sincerely believe that they were fighting just in defense of the Fatherland, and I am equally sure that by wars end the vast majority saw the utter folly of the whole mad enterprise. But having said that, whatever the original beliefs, they cannot escape the fact that they were part and parcel to one of the great crimes against humanity perpetrated in the 20th century, and one need not be a veteran of combat to understand that.

Germany committed an war of aggression against not only its sovereign neighbors it extended its aggression across the breath of the Atlantic Ocean to the east, the Baltic Sea to the north and and the Mediterranean Sea to the South. How anyone could not recognize that this was not a war against communism would require someone so bereft of intelligence is it hard to imagine that they could even grasp the basics rudiments as the manuel of arms. There is a legal concept, referred to as the Felony Murder Doctrine, that holds even unwitting offenders are as guilty for the death of any person including their codefendants even if they had no belief, intention or played any part in the intentional or even accidental killing of a person during the commission of their crime. The second world war was an unlawful war of aggression, and each and every participant is guilty of the atrocities that occurred as a result. As a result there are no excuses, no rationalizations, and no alibis for their participation.
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:34 PM
 
1,373 posts, read 856,376 times
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OMG, the video is so shaming. What a bunch of obnoxious retarded idiots.

My father was soldier in the Wehrmacht. He fought in the SU, mainly in Ukraine and on the Krim peninsula (Sevastopol, Simferopol and Kertsch). He told me very often about what he witness during the war. But he never talked about war crimes done by his own. But he told me about terrible war crimes done by some kind of special forces (maybe SS, I don't know). I can not say whether my father has commit war crimes or not.
He told me that he was starving, so he catched a chicken. He asked some local farmers for salt. The peasants were so afraid, because it was very common that the German soldiers burn down farmsteads.
He was shot in his mouth, he lost his teeth. He carried a bullet in his upper arm for his whole life, and he lost one leg. His life was rescued by Ukranian or Russian farmers.

He never had any grudge against Russians. Quite the opposite. He really loved Russia and Russians. It was very difficult for me to understand his love for Russians and Russia (sadly he also loved the communism) until I spent 3 weeks in Russia for war graves commission. The ordinary Russians in rural areas were extremely nice, friendly, warmly. It was an eye-opening experience for me. Ordinary Russians and Americans have much more in common than most Americans think.

War crimes were committed by soldiers from all countries. It's our task to learn from history and prevent such war crimes.

The obnoxious old men in the video are a shame for Germany. So disgusting.
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