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Old 01-31-2016, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,109 posts, read 991,442 times
Reputation: 1725

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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: 'Good point about ski troops. The Finns were the first in the world in utilising ski-troops on a larger scale. The Germans, Italians and French had experimented with this, but the flat woody landscape of Finland was perfect for this kind of improvised mobile warfare'

You know on that I believe the Russians didn't even make provision for fighting that kind of 'cold' war up there. I wonder what they thought when they saw Finnish troops in that white garb shooting at them. On that I read that some thought the Finns looked like the American Ku Klux Klan with that 'uniform' they fought in...;-)...

As for the ski troops I thought it a great piece of strategy and tactics where Mannerheim used them to attack in long sweeping arcs against the Russians. If the Russians attacked straight on the Finns attacked them from the 'side' with lightning strikes and then getting out of there quickly. Brilliant stuff by the Finnish command.
Yes, hit and run (or ski) tactics was very successful but as Ariete wrote, finnish army tactic was also based on individual attacks by small groups, patrols and snipers.

From boader to the inside of Finland, there was only small country roads between forest.
Russian tactic was to use lot of force, men and heavy weapons, so russians were bounded to use roads and that was big mistake.
Finns split russian divisions to the parts on these narrow roads and this way russians were forced to stop and defend.
So, russians had problem, always when they try to move forward, they got more or less fire from forests and soon they learn that only way is stay on place and wait help but this was also bad idea, no safe place to hide.
Winter is dark and cold and always when russians try to make food and needed campfire for that, they got gun fire from forest, signal was that "No cooking !"
Same with campfire to have some warm, they got gun fire from forest and signal was that "No warming!"


Short clip, ski skills and sniper Mr.Simo Häyhä:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBeYRslzK4c

Clip from Raatteentie (Raate road)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fo7PZzrBVU
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:57 PM
 
1,514 posts, read 1,082,778 times
Reputation: 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Later on he had no qualm of using Ingrian, Karelian or Veps in Soviet forces or using them as spies. And though the wars of religion was over, the Finns regarded many of these peoples with huge suspicion, especially if they were Orthodox.
I think the mutual suspiscion went both ways. The Swedish army (whose units probably included a certain number of Finns ended up destroying or looting alot of Orthodox shrines, churches, and monasteries as their attempt to annex the area took a religous turn (1600s?).

Likewise, when Finnish militia columns crossed the border in 1919 to explore the possibility of east Karelia joining Finland, they were not met with resistance, but there was not alot of enthusiasm either by Orthodox east Karelians. In the continuation war, think Mannerheim had to tell Lutheran chaplains to show more sensitivity towards orthodox locals in regards to their conversion efforts

I guess the Finns and eastern Karelians, Veps etc. are like the Irish and Scottish. They are ethnically very close cousins whose languages are very similar. But, over the centuries religous differences and enough other cultural differences developed to keep them apart.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:37 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,912,942 times
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Re: East Karelia

Just want to ask. When Finland got back EK from Russia in the Continuation War did Finns go and settle there? In reading I came across a supposed fact that no Finn wanted to go there when the territory was ceded back and they never did at the time. True or hyperbole?
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Russia
4,826 posts, read 2,713,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
3) Leadership
This is maybe the most obvious one. The Finnish generals were highly qualified experts, veterans from the First World War, most had studied in Britain, France or Germany, and were academics. I dare to say that the Finnish higher officer cadre was one of the most professional in the world at that time. In the USSR after the purges this was the opposite. You all know that, so no need to get into it further.
Propaganda, Ariete. This is propaganda.
You mentioned Britain, France or Germany, but why did not mention Russia? Baron Mannerheim is Russian officer, Russian general, talented graduate of the Russian General Staff. But it does not fit into your view, right?

+ But, of course, Soviet officers were not fit for purpose at that time.

Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 02-02-2016 at 02:10 AM..
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Old 02-02-2016, 08:15 AM
 
1,514 posts, read 1,082,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: East Karelia

Just want to ask. When Finland got back EK from Russia in the Continuation War did Finns go and settle there? In reading I came across a supposed fact that no Finn wanted to go there when the territory was ceded back and they never did at the time. True or hyperbole?
As a side note, east Karelia can mean the Finnish areas ceded to the Soviet Union during the winter war. It can also mean areas further into the interior of the USSR. These areas are inhabited by ethnic Karelians who though closely related to Finns, tended not to intergrate will with them due to religous and cultural differences.

I dont think too many Finns returned to the previously ceded areas during the war as the wartime situation in Finland made re-settlement difficult (espescially in areas with infra structure damage). My guess is that they would have been willing to return in peacetime though.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,257 posts, read 20,221,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
I think the mutual suspiscion went both ways. The Swedish army (whose units probably included a certain number of Finns ended up destroying or looting alot of Orthodox shrines, churches, and monasteries as their attempt to annex the area took a religous turn (1600s?).

Likewise, when Finnish militia columns crossed the border in 1919 to explore the possibility of east Karelia joining Finland, they were not met with resistance, but there was not alot of enthusiasm either by Orthodox east Karelians. In the continuation war, think Mannerheim had to tell Lutheran chaplains to show more sensitivity towards orthodox locals in regards to their conversion efforts

I guess the Finns and eastern Karelians, Veps etc. are like the Irish and Scottish. They are ethnically very close cousins whose languages are very similar. But, over the centuries religous differences and enough other cultural differences developed to keep them apart.
True. And additionally Catholics were slaughtered and shrines looted in the 30-year War. Though Finland's population of the whole Kingdom was only 25%, the number of Finnish soldiers in Swedish forces were a third of all forces. The Lutheranisation of Karelia and Ingria in the 1600's was almost like an inquisition. Many Eastern Karelians simply chose to flee on Russian soil, and were replaces by Finnish colonists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: East Karelia

Just want to ask. When Finland got back EK from Russia in the Continuation War did Finns go and settle there? In reading I came across a supposed fact that no Finn wanted to go there when the territory was ceded back and they never did at the time. True or hyperbole?
Finns did resettle in the areas we ceded in 1940, but not much in areas which were under our occupation (meaning areas which never had been a part of Finland or Sweden for that matter. Many 'suspicious' elements were put into prison camps, and the Karelian population was encourage to stay and be 'Finnicized'.
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:48 PM
 
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You know I have to say that when it came the ceded territories the Finns had the opportunity to not leave their homes but in the main the vast majority of them did not. They would not live in the 'Soviet Union'. I could imagine the hardship on the country in having to resettle that population on how difficult it probably was at that time. For on top of that was the war debt and reparations to Uncle Joe. That's 'tangoing' with the bear.
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:37 PM
 
12,742 posts, read 17,811,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
I

What do you think? Aren't these points kind of obvious, but great powers tend to underestimate all these factors?
You forgot outright sabotage. When wrong munition was supplied. When forts were built with substandard materials or turrets installed for weapons that didn't fit on.
Thing is, public is brainwashed into belief that ALL of the so called Stalin court hearings were phony and only slaughtered innocent people. While in reality, there was a huge 5th column in the country that indeed sabotaged or damaged as much as it could. That proliferated right after West lost its emissaries in the USSR/Russia with Trotsky's exile.
Also, notice that right after that, when Western Elite lost its concessions in Russia, suddenly NSDAP was flooded with funding and rose to power and was directed onto the USSR.
Get a broader look at the history, my friend. World operates only on ONE principle - CUI BONO.

Last edited by ukrkoz; 02-03-2016 at 03:50 PM..
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:40 PM
 
2,630 posts, read 2,502,223 times
Reputation: 2436
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You forgot outright sabotage. When wrong munition was supplied. When forts were built with substandard materials or turrets installed for weapons that didn't fit on.
Thing is, public is brainwashed into belief that ALL of the so called Stalin court hearings were phony and only slaughtered innocent people. While in reality, there was a huge 5th column in the country that indeed sabotaged or damaged as much as it could. That proliferated right after West lost its emissaries in the USSR/Russia with Trotsky's exile.
Also, notice that right after that, when Western Elite lost its concessions in Russia, suddenly NSDAP was flooded with funding and rose to power and was directed onto the USSR.
Get a broader look at the history, my friend. World operates only on ONE principle - CUI BONO.
Sounds more like what can be expected in socialist / communist society where admitting an error meant death penalty. Instead of cui bono, learn to apply Occam's Razor. makes for a much more realistic world-view and thinking.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:15 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,912,942 times
Reputation: 3115
Re: Fighting the Winter War in brutal conditions

In looking at the antagonists I would have expected prior to hostilities there that both Russians and Finns both lived in extremely cold latitudes and existed in environments that I would think be quite similar namely snow, cold, forests and lakes. This would expect both to engage in perhaps very difficult and competitive warfare. But yet the Finns practically destroyed Russian armies piecemeal with attacks. The Russians for some reason just couldn't handle it. They simply lost something against the Finns.

Was psychology perhaps the overriding factor in the Finns getting the best of their enemy time and time again? I have always thought the moral factor of the fight was the Finns great strong suit. Give a soldier an intellectual plus an emotional and spiritual impetus to fight for nation and family would appear to indubitably win battles. It had to be a great part of the Winter War for the Finns.

The Russians were courageous but that courage was forged differently than the Finn. I'd think in the first few battles the Russians knew what they were in for and they were hit with the thought that it would be a long long slog. Psychologically it had to be devastating for an army to experience that train of thought as the mind sets the lay of the land before battle.
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