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Old 02-22-2016, 04:31 AM
 
426 posts, read 307,357 times
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Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I have seen some outrageous and speculative history on these so called "history" programs. History is what is recorded and provable. Speculating that ancient Phonecians and Romans reached America is just that, speculation. Chinese in California?? speculation until you show me records that prove the voyage happened and irrefutable evidence in the New World. Oh and it cant be the kind of evidence like the runestone in Minnesota or the Viking ships carved in rocks in Michigan. That evidence is tainted by 150 years of Norse people settling in that area, so it does not prove a Viking presence in that area. Runestones can be planted can they not? Show me a Viking ship in Lake Superior then we have something to talk about. Show me Chinese artifacts on the Pacific coast of the US, then we can say the Chinese did make it to North America. Until then these kinds of stories are the thing of low grade "history" programming. Its hard to believe what gets put on documentaries and news programs these days. It used to be that you had to provide facts to prove what you said on TV, but not anymore as you can tell people aliens built the pyramids and millions will actually believe that. We have become a nation of gullable fools. I wonder what percentage of our population thinks aliens were heavily involved in our ancient past? We have abandoned reason and logic for crazy.
There were several expeditions to America during th middle ages, italians, german, etc. None returned.
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:58 PM
 
5,510 posts, read 4,973,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that some of the Norse settlers ventured further into the Americas than what was documented?

I've yet to see a souce that has meaningfully debunked the Norse/Algonqian connection, so if anyone has a source they're willing to share, I'd like to see it.
I recommend checking out the works by Jack Forbes who mentions that not only Norsemen at least reached the Americas before Columbus but that some Native Americans groups likewise reached certain parts of northern Europe (as well as the Pacific) on their own terms.

Africans and Native Americans

Last edited by kovert; 02-22-2016 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 02-22-2016, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,518,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
It would be very hard to prove without DNA or hard evidence now. But in the southwest, Cabeza de Vaca and three other shipwrecked survivors walked from near Galveston TX to Mexico City in the 1530s. It took eight years and they lived among the tribes along the way never seeing another Spaniard until they reached Culiac√°n on the Gulf of California. They absorbed the Indian lifestyle more than spreading Spanish culture or language among the tribes. If a handful of Spanish soldiers could survive eight years in the largely desert regions of the southwest it is possible that some norse stragglers or traders could have ventured into the wilderness and survived a while. I don't think I would base the argument on linguistics --- teaching the Indians old Norse would not be a top priority if you are roaming around Canada or the Great Lakes trying to survive. Adapting to the Indian customs -- as Cabeza de Vaca's group did -- seems like the way they could survive. Skeletal evidence, DNA, or indisputable artifacts at an inland site away from Vinland would be helpful.
It would make sense to adapt the lifestyle of those who lived there successfully. But the linguistic connection could be very real too. They would have taught each other their language and used it as a mix. If there are a lot of words with common pronunciations, it is unlikely they came up with them on their own. Especially in an isolated language, this would survive.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
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Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
It would make sense to adapt the lifestyle of those who lived there successfully. But the linguistic connection could be very real too. They would have taught each other their language and used it as a mix. If there are a lot of words with common pronunciations, it is unlikely they came up with them on their own. Especially in an isolated language, this would survive.
If the Vikings had almost zero influence on the Russian language (Vikings had huge trade routes through Eastern European rivers and became the ruling dynasties of many East Slavic principalities including European largest country/federation at the time, Kievan Rus) So if the Vikings assimilated into the East Slavic culture, I'm sure the same would've happened in the Americas considering there were way fewer colonizers than in Russia.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:04 PM
 
Location: 5,400 feet
3,078 posts, read 2,936,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
I recently read a book about Lewis and Clark. I was particularly interested in a chapter which described their incursions into the lands of the Mandan people. One interesting thing about this tribe is that, according to historical accounts, many had light eyes and light hair, which obviously goes against our modern understanding of Native Americans.
The theory is that it was a Welsh explorer/sailor who landed on the coast of Alabama and worked his way up through Tennessee and points north. The Mandan were the only tribe to use round boats (can't really call them canoes). Those boats were remarkably similar to the round Welsh boats (and only known other widespread use of round boats). The physical characteristics were also described by well known artist George Catlin, who spent a year or so with the tribe before they were decimated by a smallpox epidemic in 1837. Much of what is known about the Mandan stems from the paintings and drawings Catlin created.
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Old 03-01-2016, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,576 posts, read 7,775,076 times
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Originally Posted by jiminnm View Post
The theory is that it was a Welsh explorer/sailor who landed on the coast of Alabama and worked his way up through Tennessee and points north. The Mandan were the only tribe to use round boats (can't really call them canoes). Those boats were remarkably similar to the round Welsh boats (and only known other widespread use of round boats). The physical characteristics were also described by well known artist George Catlin, who spent a year or so with the tribe before they were decimated by a smallpox epidemic in 1837. Much of what is known about the Mandan stems from the paintings and drawings Catlin created.
They're called bull boats.

And instead of the word 'theory', I'd use the phrase 'wild conjecture'. it is not unusual at all for different peoples to independently develop similar technologies for a given task, and there are many instances of similar boats being developed by peoples that certainly came to the design not by copying it from some other peoples on the far side of the planet, but because it well-suited the task at hand.

Ozzam's razor.
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Old 03-01-2016, 02:25 PM
 
12,674 posts, read 18,286,322 times
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Where is Thor Heyerdahl when you need him?
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:00 PM
 
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There was no sucessful Norse colony in the New World, even from the Sagas the first attempt lasted two years I think and the second one until Leif's brother was killed which I think was in the first summer. The known Norse contact in the New World other than that one attempt was in the north which was rich in resourcs that the Greenlanders could sell to Europe. Long houses which were determined to be Norse by I think McGee were most likely shelters over winters used whenever needed.

Or perhaps Barry Fell is correct and the First Nations people could not do anything by themselves are were visited by the Norse, Irish, and just about every nation from the Mediterrain.
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:04 PM
 
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Well, I can't say one way or the other but reading this thread brought to mind a paragraph in Andrew Blackbirds History of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan published in 1887.

In the acknowledgement the Ypsilanti Auxiliary of the Women's National Indian Association, who published the book writes:
"This is the only instance where a native Indian has recorded the story of his people and given a grammar of their language; this producing a work whose immense value, as a account of a race and a language already passing into oblivion, will become even more inestimable with the lapse of time.
Ypsilanti, Mich,. Oct., 1887.

So, anyway to get to the relevance to this post in the last paragraph of chapter 11 it says:
"There are many theories as to the origin of the Indian race in America, but nothing but speculation can be given on this subject. But we believe there must have been people living in this country before those tribes who were driven out by the Ottawas and the Chippewas who were more advanced in art and in civilization, for many evidences of their work have been discovered..."

It then goes on to describe a great copper kettle discovered 250 years prior to his writing.

History of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan: Andrew Blackbird: 9781505424782: Amazon.com: Books
You can also find it free on-line for anyone who wants to read the paragraph.

The whole book is very interesting.
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