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Old 02-16-2016, 12:24 AM
 
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Many believed that the policy of appeasement allowed Germany the freedom to become aggressive between 1933-1939.

What are some counter arguments to this theory?
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Old 02-17-2016, 07:02 PM
 
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That is basically it. I can think of no other reason. The Allies could have simply said no to Hitler's early demands and used army mobilization/invasion as a threat. Germany's military was weak in 1933-36, and incapable of resisting invasion. Instead, the Allies sat back and let Hitler have what he wanted. They watched as he openly violated the Treaty of Versailles and rapidly expanded his military. The Allies failed to intervene on a number of occasions when they were in a position of strength. By 1938, it was too late and the opportunities to contain Hitler slipped through the grasp of the Allies.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:15 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
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I suppose you could argue that if the Allies hadn't actively appeased the Axis, they could have passively not taken notice.

But it's kind of hard not to notice Germany acquiring/invading other countries. So there really is no counter-argument
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Old 02-20-2016, 08:19 PM
 
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Anglo Saxons were the ones who rose Hitler to power and directed Wermacht onto Russia. Ever since Stalin expelled Trotsky and Anglo Saxons lost their concessions in Russia.
Also, part of the plan was to destroy Germany as Germany did one thing English masons could not forgive it - they came up with German ONLY masonic lodges.
One plan failed, one succeeded. No Rumstein in the world can bring the German spirit back, nation is broken.
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Old 02-21-2016, 05:11 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,673 posts, read 15,672,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Anglo Saxons were the ones who rose Hitler to power and directed Wermacht onto Russia. Ever since Stalin expelled Trotsky and Anglo Saxons lost their concessions in Russia.
Also, part of the plan was to destroy Germany as Germany did one thing English masons could not forgive it - they came up with German ONLY masonic lodges.
One plan failed, one succeeded. No Rumstein in the world can bring the German spirit back, nation is broken.
They came up with German ONLY masonic lodges? Really? I'd like to read some more about that.

Here's the Wiki article listing Freemasons among the groups targeted by the Holocaust. It mentions the little blue forget-me-not emblem that German masons wore to secretly identify themselves with each other while thousands of their members were killed in the concentration camps because the Nazis accused them of being part of the "Jewish" or "Jewish-Masonic" conspiracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum provides us with these articles:

Freemasonry under the Nazi Regime

This article describes how the discrimination against the Lodges escalated until the members were banned to the camps, their assets confiscated, and propaganda against the masons is documented.

Freemasonry

This article contains a lot more of the history of the Freemasons and how the order developed in Germany that was different from the development in other parts of Europe.

Holocaust Victims provides this information:

Holocaust Victims: Freemasons

The Grand Lodge of Scotland documents this history with this article:

The Grand Lodge of Scotland

In this article the same Grand Lodge notes that at least 80,000 Masons died in the holocaust.

The Grand Lodge of Scotland

So, please. Tell us about those German-only Lodges.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:18 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
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Originally Posted by kangmuhan View Post
Many believed that the policy of appeasement allowed Germany the freedom to become aggressive between 1933-1939.

What are some counter arguments to this theory?
I am having trouble wrapping my head around this one because the statement is true! The policy of appeasement did allow Germany time to rearm and become the aggressor. Especially during the early to mid 1930s.

However in the late 1930s, basically at the time of Munich, I have seen an argument that appeasement now allowed the British and French time to rearm. The British in particular had a horrible fear of the German air force bombing British cities (possibly with chemical bombs) and so wanted time to upgrade their air force. Of course when the Germans did bomb Britain it was not as bad as the complete devastation that they had foreseen before the war.

The biggest mistake the Allies did was not coordinating their responses against Hitler with the Soviets. And the Soviets deserve some of that blame too.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:21 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Anglo Saxons were the ones who rose Hitler to power and directed Wermacht onto Russia. Ever since Stalin expelled Trotsky and Anglo Saxons lost their concessions in Russia.
Also, part of the plan was to destroy Germany as Germany did one thing English masons could not forgive it - they came up with German ONLY masonic lodges.
One plan failed, one succeeded. No Rumstein in the world can bring the German spirit back, nation is broken.
Not true. Read Mein Kampf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

In Mein Kampf Hitler openly stated the future German expansion in the East:

And so we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre-War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the east. At long last we break of the colonial and commercial policy of the pre-War period and shift to the soil policy of the future.

If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states.[16]

Hitler's later invasions of Czechoslovakia and Poland, and his attack against the Soviet Union directly resonated from his desire for Lebensraum as spelled out in Mein Kampf
.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:09 PM
 
3,910 posts, read 9,471,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I am having trouble wrapping my head around this one because the statement is true! The policy of appeasement did allow Germany time to rearm and become the aggressor. Especially during the early to mid 1930s.

However in the late 1930s, basically at the time of Munich, I have seen an argument that appeasement now allowed the British and French time to rearm. The British in particular had a horrible fear of the German air force bombing British cities (possibly with chemical bombs) and so wanted time to upgrade their air force. Of course when the Germans did bomb Britain it was not as bad as the complete devastation that they had foreseen before the war.

The biggest mistake the Allies did was not coordinating their responses against Hitler with the Soviets. And the Soviets deserve some of that blame too.
Several things.

First, the Soviets were NOT allies with the West, and there was no hope of cooperation between the two. In fact, the Soviets were allied with Nazi Germany in 1939.

Second, the policies of appeasement occurred in 1936-38 pre-Munich, while British re-armament began post-Munich in 1938. Munich was the turning point where appeasement policies were deemed to have failed, so the British began to re-arm as a result. Appeasement of Hitler began in 1936, but one could argue that German appeasement started much farther back than that. The French/British had stopped enforcing the Versailles restrictions for all intents and purposes as far back as the late 20's. So the notion that appeasement bought time for the British doesn't jive. The British could have started to re-arm in 1933, the day Hitler took power, but they didn't. Instead they waited until 1938, by which time they were hopelessly behind Germany, who had begun 5-6 years earlier.

By 1938, when British re-arming began, the Luftwaffe was the largest, most modern air force in the world. By 1940, when Germany invaded the West, the Luftwaffe outnumbered the RAF at least 3-1 and the French about 5-1. Further, the British were heavily reliant on American planes. The British had state of the art planes and pilots, but too few of them to rival Germany. The British survived the Blitz campaign despite the odds because they held a home-defense advantage of having overwhelming anti-aircraft support aiding them. Germany did not have this luxury, so they took heavy losses during the campaign.

Third, there was no French re-armament. France had the largest army in the world in the 1920's-1930's, and maintained this huge army leading up to WW2. They did not need to re-arm. The French weakness was their air force, but they invested minimally in this during the pre-war compared to other countries. The French leaders were supremely confident in their huge army being able to defend the frontiers and hold the Maginot Line.

In the 1930's, the French were left as the only Western Ally with a huge army capable of interdicting against Germany. Unfortunately, the French sat on their thumbs and failed to act on a number of occasions. They simply lacked the willpower to intervene and get involved in war. In the critical years, from 1936-38, when Hitler made aggressive demands and annexed territories, the French failed to intervene. No other western country was capable of backing up demands with credible threats. Not even the British. Hitler, sensing the lack of French response, felt he had a free hand to carve up Europe as he saw fit.

Last edited by Nolefan34; 02-21-2016 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:02 AM
 
14,993 posts, read 23,892,069 times
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Hmmm, 1 hit posters are usually some kids looking for answers to a highschool writing essay.

One comment however - Russia did not really "appease" Germany, they were more or less partners-in-crime in dividing up eastern Europe. While Germany annexed Austria and finally invaded Poland, the Soviet union occupied Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and invaded and split in half Poland with Germany. This was all the benefit of non-aggression treaties they signed between each other. They were essentially both playing a game because they knew that, eventually, both would fight each other. Stalin's strategy was to wait and build, and/or see the western powers of England/France and Germany pummel each other to weakness.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:07 PM
 
2,806 posts, read 3,178,395 times
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Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Hmmm, 1 hit posters are usually some kids looking for answers to a highschool writing essay.

One comment however - Russia did not really "appease" Germany, they were more or less partners-in-crime in dividing up eastern Europe. While Germany annexed Austria and finally invaded Poland, the Soviet union occupied Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and invaded and split in half Poland with Germany. This was all the benefit of non-aggression treaties they signed between each other. They were essentially both playing a game because they knew that, eventually, both would fight each other. Stalin's strategy was to wait and build, and/or see the western powers of England/France and Germany pummel each other to weakness.
There was some military cooperation between Germany and the Soviet Union predating Hitler in the Weimar Republic. A lot of studies and practical maneuvers were conducted in Russia away from the eyes of the Western Powers that lay the foundation of Blitzkrieg. This was interrupted by Hitler's rise to power until the pact of 1939 dividing up Eastern Europe.
In all the cruel joke about appeasement is that they appeased the aggressive dictator Hitler and were harsh to the democratically elect governments of the Weimar Republic. Talk about a double-stumble. They helped Hitler come to power overthrowing the democratic structures in Germany and then helped him build up his military powers. Ouch, this really hurts.
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