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Old 04-30-2016, 04:04 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,290,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart G. Griffin View Post
Well, Hawaii wouldn't be American so Obama wouldn't be president now.
I've never seen a realistic plan for the Japanese to take Hawaii.
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Old 04-30-2016, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,184 posts, read 22,227,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider View Post
Trump has resurrected America First as a doctrine. Some say the term is ugly, mostly relating to WW2 and the desire to stay out of it. My question is how would the war have turned out if indeed America had stayed out? I am not at all sure that Germany would have prevailed.
Please. Stop the what if nonsense. Alternate history can be spun in any way anyone wants to spin it.

We didn't go to war with Germany. We went to war with Japan, after they attacked us. Germany was allied with Japan, as was Italy. Then and now, allies fight for theirs, and others fight them all.

Change any of this and it all changes in any direction you want to go. That's why alternate history is so stupid. Anything can be claimed, no matter how ridiculous it is. Why? Because alternate history is entirely fictional from the first.
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Old 04-30-2016, 05:59 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,290,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
Please. Stop the what if nonsense. Alternate history can be spun in any way anyone wants to spin it.

We didn't go to war with Germany. We went to war with Japan, after they attacked us. Germany was allied with Japan, as was Italy. Then and now, allies fight for theirs, and others fight them all.
The American-British Conversations, ABC-1 Talks, established the "Germany First" doctrine in the Spring of 1941. FDR and Churchill confirmed this at the Atlantic Conference and announced it at Casablanca. So, yeah, we wanted to go to war the Germany. Japan was a distraction we didn't need.
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,184 posts, read 22,227,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
The American-British Conversations, ABC-1 Talks, established the "Germany First" doctrine in the Spring of 1941. FDR and Churchill confirmed this at the Atlantic Conference and announced it at Casablanca. So, yeah, we wanted to go to war the Germany. Japan was a distraction we didn't need.
But the fact is we didn't until Japan attacked us. Everything past that is imaginary.
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:18 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,290,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
But the fact is we didn't until Japan attacked us. Everything past that is imaginary.
Twice in 1941, July and November, FDR's cabinet was of the unanimous opinion that he could get a declaration of war through Congress if the Japanese attacked the British or Dutch colonies in South East Asia, and not attack US possessions. It hung on a knife blade, but was always inevitable. 72% of Americans said we'd have to fight Japan sooner or later, and 68% said the same for Germany, during the first week of November, 1941. Gen. Marshall and Admiral King were so convinced the war would begin soon that they wrote a joint letter to FDR, urging him to delay the onset of hostilities as long as he could, ninety days if possible. This was delivered around 6 November, IIRC. (Copies of the above in the Exhibits of the Congressional Investigation Into The Attack on Pearl Harbor.)
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:22 PM
 
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If American had sat out WWII there would have been no grand recovery from the depression--

America's boom of the 50-60s was pent up demand from the lean war years---
The GI Bill of Rights would not have been passed which put hundred of thousands of GIs into college and which helped finance the growth of the suburban home cycle with VA mortgages
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:39 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,555,590 times
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Originally Posted by TxNative247 View Post
If American had sat out WWII there would have been no grand recovery from the depression--
That's just an old canard.
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,184 posts, read 22,227,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Twice in 1941, July and November, FDR's cabinet was of the unanimous opinion that he could get a declaration of war through Congress if the Japanese attacked the British or Dutch colonies in South East Asia, and not attack US possessions. It hung on a knife blade, but was always inevitable. 72% of Americans said we'd have to fight Japan sooner or later, and 68% said the same for Germany, during the first week of November, 1941. Gen. Marshall and Admiral King were so convinced the war would begin soon that they wrote a joint letter to FDR, urging him to delay the onset of hostilities as long as he could, ninety days if possible. This was delivered around 6 November, IIRC. (Copies of the above in the Exhibits of the Congressional Investigation Into The Attack on Pearl Harbor.)
Thanks for the details.
And I agree that inevitibility of war with Japan was probable, but until the immediate events that preceded Peal Harbor by a few days, and then the attack that followed, the "what if" ends right there. That was the day when probability became facts, and while I appreciate the details, I still really don't like any "What if" topic, as they all just muddy historical waters.

We as a nation are already woefully ignorant of history, and the lack of our knowledge damages us in many ways. Adding speculative fantasy to this only makes any historical discussion all the worse.
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:33 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,290,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
But the fact is we didn't until Japan attacked us. Everything past that is imaginary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
Thanks for the details.
And I agree that inevitibility of war with Japan was probable, but until the immediate events that preceded Peal Harbor by a few days, and then the attack that followed, the "what if" ends right there. That was the day when probability became facts, and while I appreciate the details, I still really don't like any "What if" topic, as they all just muddy historical waters.
I never used the term "what-if".
Quote:
We as a nation are already woefully ignorant of history, and the lack of our knowledge damages us in many ways. Adding speculative fantasy to this only makes any historical discussion all the worse.
War-gaming is a type of what-if, one that follows specific rules. The IJN war-gamed the attack on Pearl Harbor in November. At one point a surprise raid sank two of their carriers. The next day they were back in formation and heading for Pearl. Was that cheating? No. The scenario was instructive, but they had to game the rest of the scenarios to address issues that hadn't been resolved by the planners.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
16,398 posts, read 10,434,349 times
Reputation: 36214
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
War-gaming is a type of what-if, one that follows specific rules. The IJN war-gamed the attack on Pearl Harbor in November. At one point a surprise raid sank two of their carriers. The next day they were back in formation and heading for Pearl. Was that cheating? No. The scenario was instructive, but they had to game the rest of the scenarios to address issues that hadn't been resolved by the planners.
They did the same thing before Midway, when the guy playing the part of the U.S. Navy made a move that ended up closely paralleling the way the U.S. actually acted in the battle, and (in the war game) the Japanese lost the carrier Kaga. And yet, later on, that very same ship was refloated and allowed to take part in follow-up operations.

It might not have been cheating, but it certainly did display a lack of intellectual rigor on their part. They should have continued with the "what-if" scenarios and worked out how they would have responded to such an event, instead of just saying "it could never happen" and moving on.
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